Here is a new discussion on the upcoming high school graduation of the daughter of the author of the Prairie Muffin Manifesto. Again, the point is that girls who are going to be wives and mothers do not need to go to college. In her own defense, she quotes G.K. Chesterton in Orthodoxy “When you choose anything, you reject everything else.”
What do you think?
true womanhood in the new millennium 
March 29, 2007 at 11:51 am
Still, to have an uneducated wife and mother wouldnt do.. Who else raises the kids? Women these days are better off than in the old days, they now have a freedom of choice.
March 29, 2007 at 4:16 pm
I don’t understand this either/or mentality. Why do so many think they must choose college OR being a wife/mother? Why not both, and use your training to be better wife, a better learner, a better _______?
March 29, 2007 at 4:22 pm
if i choose a banana for breakfast today it doesn’t mean that tomorrow i will choose a banana again. in rejecting everything else for breakfast today, i’ve not rejected it for tomorrow, nor is my choice to not eat a banana for breakfast tomorrow a rejection of bananas.
choosing to be educated today does not mean that i am rejecting motherhood or housewifery or whatever.
i think that quote is out of context, too. ::off to find my copy of orthodoxy::
March 29, 2007 at 4:32 pm
One observation: many of the reasons given for daughters not going to college seem to be based on fear rather than faith, on what they are protecting daughters from rather than what opportunities they could have. I think this is a common tendency for parents and understandable. But is it really biblical?
March 29, 2007 at 11:26 pm
That’s a really interesting point. Fear is the common denominator, ironically, between this camp and its opposite–those who have to have a career in case husbands die or a marriage ends, etc.
March 31, 2007 at 1:14 am
What I would adore to ask the Prairie Muffin (but do not DARE ask because of how she mercilessly eviscerates anyone who opposes her) is, why does she want to hobble her daughters from obtaining the very thing (marriage to an educated man who could actually support a no-birth-control family) that she sees as a woman’s ultimate calling?
Despite the feminism of the era (late 80s), my mom raised my sister and me to see marriage as the greatest achievement we could hope for. I probably could have pursued and done well at many careers, but I was far more interested in “finding a man” at college. Unfortunately, this “desperado” vibe spelled doom for my quest! It seemed like guys could sniff out my aspirations from a mile away. I made it through college, and through several years as a high school English teacher, without meeting Mr. Right. Honestly, it was only after I’d just about given up, and had no more visible desperation, that I actually had the self-esteem to attract the man I eventually married.
And that’s the thing–all these Prairie Muffins are raising daughters to have that same over-eager vibe when it comes to any semi-eligible guy who crosses their path. Ironically, to accomplish what their moms want (marriage!), these girls would fair better by focusing LESS on the so-called “home arts” (and the men they need to fulfill their wifely callings) and instead directing that energy to perhaps a formal education or a JOB, where they could be amassing a nice little bank account balance while they wait for Mr. Right. At the very least, they’d gain a little sense of perspective, which would help them be more appealing to the sort of guys they’re looking for.
“Edited to remove a paragraph that included what was perceived as too-detailed, private, and hurtful information”?
March 31, 2007 at 1:23 am
And…because I just KNOW that Carmon would mention it, if she were to post here, I realize my typo. I know that it’s “fare” and not “fair.” My bad.
March 31, 2007 at 7:34 am
Karen, I really liked being “Queen” Prairie Muffin for a day.
Joan, I am bewildered by your angry words here. You wrote to me privately with a nice email, and I wrote to you with a long response trying to honestly answer your questions. I can post it if anyone wants to critique it and decide if I eviscerated you. I said things like, “I also agree with you that many homeschooling moms can be very ungracious about their convictions on that subject. I do not believe that homeschooling is *the* solution to raising godly children.”
It was very unkind of you, however, to bring up my son in a public forum, and also to make assumptions about him without knowing any details. I do not, for his sake and my daughter-in-law’s, discuss our family’s issues on my blog, though I do share it freely with anyone who needs to know, particularly women who are struggling with similar issues in their own homes, and in the rare times I speak publicly. It is not a secret. You are engaging in the very behavior you bemoaned from the homeschooling mothers who you felt were ostracizing you.
For the record, my husband is a brilliant man, without a college degree, who has managed to support his large family and be a godly example and loving husband for 25 years. He is more educated than most of the men with advanced degrees from Ivy League colleges he has interviewed in Fortune 500 companies where he has worked. A godly husband is from the Lord, as is a godly wife.
March 31, 2007 at 10:12 am
Carmon, you’re certainly right. I’m not sure what got the best of me (original sin? the devil?). I actually awoke in the middle of the night, horrified at what I’d written, and now I’m trying to find a way to contact someone here and have them remove my comment. Since I wronged you in public, I want to ask your forgiveness in public.
You did NOT eviscerate me in our email conversation. I was thinking more of comments you’ve made on other forums, and your more recent post to “Cynthia.”
In case anyone else had to witness my sorry display, I’ll just add this one last comment here–I’m not “angry” with you (particularly over anything from our email exchange), but I do feel a sense of disgust over what seems a lot like hypocrisy in your blog. You seem to want it both ways. You SAY you don’t think you have all the answers, but then your whole site sets you up as sort of the Martha Stewart of the Prairie Muffin set (even down to telling us what you’re wearing?), where you speak with such authority and toss around the “sin” label over crucial, life-changing topics like “allowing” one’s daughter to go to college. It’s not enough to give our “weaknesses” lip service. If you go into detail so publicly about all the glories of your family life, then an honest portrayal of yourself would include SOME mention somewhere about what happens when a child rebels despite our best efforts as parents.
But again–I am sorry. Your son, his wife, their story, are all absolutely none of my business.
March 31, 2007 at 12:32 pm
Just for the record, I don’t believe that one must finish college in order to support a family. But I do think that in general, a degree is now so ubiquitous that NOT having one puts a man at a distinct disadvantage, especially in the beginning stages of a job search. No doubt the Ivy League graduates that Carmon’s husband interviewed were helped by having those institutions’ names on their resumes. Life is different now than it was even 25 years ago. Look on Monster.com sometime at listings for higher-paying jobs. At minimum, most require a 4-year college degree.
But back to the original topic, which was whether or not it’s “generally wrong” to send daughters to college, if their role is to be a wife and a mother…
I can’t help but look at this question from a practical standpoint. Even if we forget about the actual education for a moment (and concede that it’s fully possible to teach oneself a great deal through reading and personal study), I would assert that a Christian college is an excellent place for a girl whose main goal in life is to get married.
While God is sovereign and all-powerful and can send just the right man to my front door while my daughter is doing the dinner dishes, it sure seems to make a lot more sense that, if my daughter wants to meet and attract an eligible husband, I’d encourage her to go places where more of these guys were hanging out, and where she’d have some common interests with them that would function as conversation starters.
And then I’d encourage her, ironically, to focus far LESS on thinking about marriage. From all of my observations, men are not usually attracted to over-eager women. If my daughter is happily distracted by Psychology 101 or some other such course, “courting” her or even just talking to her won’t seem like such a heavy-duty risk for a guy as it would if he knew that her sole goal in life was to get married and stay home, and that she was already viewing him as a ticket to that life.
I also found that my college years and subsequent time in the workforce did nothing but INCREASE my appreciation for staying at home with my children. There’s not a day that goes by when I don’t stop and ponder how blessed I am to be a homemaker. Even when the kids were younger and it felt as though I never got a break from diapers, cooking, cleaning, and all the cries of, “Mommy,” I always knew that being at home was better than any day spent “out in the work world,” even though teaching had been a very rewarding career.
I think it’s great that the Prairie Muffins out there evaluate cultural norms such as sending girls to college. That’s more biblical than many Christians’ unthinking acceptance of such norms. But in the same way that knee-jerk acceptance of societal norms is NOT biblical, so is knee-jerk condemnation of such a hugely complex issue like college for women. I think it could come back to haunt these parents, especially in 10 or 15 years, when too many of their daughters will hit their 30s and still be living at home with Mom and Dad, sadly wondering what might have been.
March 31, 2007 at 7:48 pm
Joan,
Please drop me a note at
shesthatmom@gmail and tell me what you would like to have removed from your comment. You said too many good things to scrap the whole thing but I want you to be comfortable with what is written here.
Karen
March 31, 2007 at 7:52 pm
Carmon,
I remember reading somewhere, I thought it was on your blog, referring to you as the Queen Prairie Muffin. After I wrote that, not intending to be insulting, someone brought it to my attention that it could be taken in a negative way, so I changed that. I hope I didn’t offend you and that you really did enjoy being the “Queen for the Day.” Now if I could just offer you a free washing machine or maid service, you would be all set!
It is our goal to discuss philosophies here and to avoid getting personal unless we are discussing a first-hand account. I struggle on a personal level with having a sharp tongue and quick fingers so I am always glad to be corrected.
March 31, 2007 at 7:58 pm
Joan,
I am so glad that you found our blog and that you added so many good thoughts. I want to comment on many things you said but this jumped off the page to me “I think it could come back to haunt these parents, especially in 10 or 15 years, when too many of their daughters will hit their 30s and still be living at home with Mom and Dad, sadly wondering what might have been.” I think this is already happening in some homes. I have been around this teaching for more than 20 years and know that there are families who have reconsidered this position, some before it was too late and some when their daughters were much older than their classmates when they finally did go to college. My husband and I were heavily influenced by these views early on but my daughter’s talents and gifts were too many to not have her study further, as we were encouraged to do by her music teachers. We are so happy that she did go to college and are quite proud of her, godly college educated wife and mom that she is! (Mollie on this site, is my daughter, by the way, so I can’t not brag about her!!!)
March 31, 2007 at 11:11 pm
I sent you an email at gmail.com (I’m guessing it’s “.com”). Thanks so much for dealing with my “sharp fingers” (the 21st century equivalent of a “sharp tongue”)!
April 3, 2007 at 9:24 pm
I’m a bit behind because I’m in the beginnings of the whole feeding/diaper changing era, but I wanted to echo this statement of Joan’s, above:
“I also found that my college years and subsequent time in the workforce did nothing but INCREASE my appreciation for staying at home with my children. There’s not a day that goes by when I don’t stop and ponder how blessed I am to be a homemaker. … I always knew that being at home was better than any day spent “out in the work world,” even though teaching had been a very rewarding career.”
My sentinments exactly. The last few months of teaching, I woke up every morning thinking “I can’t wait to be a mom.” Now, I wake up with joy knowing I am where I am supposed to be– for now. Perhaps I’ll join the workforce again– from home or otherwise– one day in the future, but for the present, my place with my son is so much better. And I don’t think this would be as sweet if I had never known what it is to go to college or to work outside the home– whether in an office or a school. Because I was a teacher, I have a new appreciation for working mothers, especially those who are parents of teenagers. I have also gained perspective on relationships within the workforce and my community, and on the state of public education, that I never could’ve gained from home. I appreciate the blessing that I have been given (not having to work) so much more because of where I’ve been the past ten years after high school.
April 4, 2007 at 12:44 pm
Hi!
I don’t think anyone is arguing that it is not a good place to be home with one’s children? I think what is being argued is the teaching by some that daughters should not go to college and that it is sin for them to do so.
I totally agree with you about being with children. I have 10 and this is where I want to be…….for now. I don’t know what the future holds for me.
But, you and Carmon both had a choice to go to college and you were not condemned for it. You were able to go to college and now you are able to stay home with your children. In fact, there are many vocal women who condemn the practice of girls going to college when they went to college and even had a career (they were Christians at the time!) themselves.
Why take away that choice from other young women and then condemn them (not saying you do, Allison, I don’t know) when they choose to go to college before getting married and having children?
I don’t think anyone is taking away from the importance of motherhood at all when they say that girls should be allowed to make that choice.
April 4, 2007 at 12:56 pm
Allison,
I realize you are not one that teaches that girls should not go to college. My post kind of sounds like I thought you were. I am sorry I wasn’t more clear. 🙂
April 4, 2007 at 5:26 pm
Hi, Corrie…
I think that’s just it–the way I understood the original essay on the subject, way back when, was that the “normative practice of Christians sending their daughters to college is generally wrong.” In other words, college for girls is, most of the time, outside of God’s will.
I find this point of view simply amazing…
First of all, it smacks of situational ethics, something that I believe its proponants would otherwise outright condemn. If you’re going to use the Bible to make a case for something, then either the thing is wrong all the time, or it is NOT wrong. Probably, if the statement were re-phrased to say “not wise,” I wouldn’t have such an issue with people who think like that.
I agree with all of you that it seems really silly to make it into an “either/or” thing. Like you can’t somehow be a good wife and mother, with proper feminine outlook, if you obtained a college degree and spent time in the workforce.
Actually, I think the anti-college crowd might have other motives, way deep down, for their hard-and-fast position. Perhaps it’s got something to do with economics? Where a Christian college isn’t even a financially viable choice? Perhaps there’s a motive of fear? Where they’re not secure in their parenting or their daughters’ ability to discern or withstand more liberal points of view? Maybe there’s even a tiny bit of selfishness, where they don’t want to lose a set of helping hands around the house?
Framing these practical life decisions in terms of “generally wrong” seems generally wrong to me! Especially when it sure seems like there could be other, less Biblical, reasons for their point of view.
April 5, 2007 at 5:01 pm
Joan, I do think that there are motives behind many of these teachings that are not biblically based.
I wonder who gets to decide in each case when it is okay for a woman to go to college and when it is not okay? Who is the final judge and arbiter?
““normative practice of Christians sending their daughters to college is generally wrong.” In other words, college for girls is, most of the time, outside of God’s will.”
So, sometimes it is okay for women to go to college. Does anyone know what makes it okay in those certain exceptions? And, why do they get to make the rules and terms?
I have been troubled by some teachings coming out of this movement that tell daughters that they are to serve their fathers and even their brothers until/if a husband comes along. Really, serve their brothers? Serve their fathers? What if God has given them a gift of being single so they can be single-mindedly devoted to serving HIM? I mean, the Bible tells us that the married man and woman is concerned about how he/she may please their spouse where the single man or woman is more concerned about how he/she may please the Lord.
Then, it stands to say that a single woman’s main focus is the Lord and serving HIM, not serving her father/brother as some sort of surrogate husband. There is nothing wrong with helping those around us and doing things to bless others but when it is expected that a daughter/sister is there to serve *ME*, then I do not think that is grounded in scripture.
It troubles me that in this patriarchal movement we have brothers becoming an authority over their sisters. It troubles me that it seems that it is being taught that fathers are the head of their daughters when the Bible only teaches that the only “head” a woman has is her husband. The analogy leads us to the Church and it shouldn’t be extrapolated onto all male/female relationships. It troubles me that the mother is pretty much out of the picture and that it is taught that a mother’s authority over her own children is given to her by her husband when scripture clearly teaches that a mother’s authority over her own children is given to her by God. I do not see that a father has more authority over the children than the mother because scripture tells children to obey their parents and to honor their mother and father and Proverbs is full of examples of sons, even grown sons, listening to their mother’s wisdom, teachings and advice and how a disobedient son is a disgrace and shame to his mother. I am troubled by how older daughters are expected to be surrogate moms to their siblings while their brothers get to choose what it is they want to do. Don’t boys grown up to be fathers/husbands, too? Or is that a secondary calling on a man whereas it is a primary calling on a woman?
There are many things taught that are not grounded in the whole of scripture and this college thing is just one more of them. Is it wise to send our sons to college? What are the reasons? Are not they the same reasons for not allowing our daughters to go to college? It seems that the number one reason a daughter should not go to college is because the are in danger of developing an “independent spirit”. What exactly does that mean? That they can make decisions concerning their life and are responsible to the Lord for those decisions?
April 5, 2007 at 6:20 pm
Corrie,
Thank you, thank you and thank you! I may have to post this comment on my own blog. Well said!
Sallie
April 5, 2007 at 6:50 pm
Yes, Corrie, well said.
I think you may have hit on something with your mention of fear. Though I am not familiar with many of these arguments in real life (I am blessed to be surrounded by women who encourage other women to go to college), I have read enough on the internet to see that some of the “girls should not go to college” mindset folks sometimes use reasons that seem to be out of a spirit of fear– that their daughters are going to be coerced by worldly influences or not be submissive to their future husbands just because they went to college. To me, that seems fearful because the parents do not seem to trust that they have raised a daughter who is capable of making her own decisions. If they have raised her as a godly woman in the LORD, they should trust that IF she does decide to go to college, she will be able to make appropriate decisions as a young adult. Now, obviously, some women still may not choose to go to college and that is fine. We have said repeatedly on this site that we do not advocate that all young women go to college, just that they be offered the choice.
However, if a young women does decide not to go to college, it should be for the same reasons that a young man might not go to college, not just because she is a woman. Perhaps the reason is financial and either the student needs to postpone classes or take alternative routes (community college, online, etc.). Maybe his/her calling in life does not need a college education– maybe then he or she could go to a technical school or be an apprentice. Perhaps he or she already has a thriving business or is working his/her way up in one and does not need a degree at the present moment. And yes, some of these reasons are given as to why women should not go to college at all, BUT I don’t see why they are strictly confined to women.
If a young man wants to forego college to run a business or continue in a particular job, he should. If a young girl wants to forego college to raise a family, she should. If a young man wants to go to college, no one questions that he should. And if a young women decides she wants to further her education, she should be allowed to do so. But all of these decisions, of course, should be made after seeking godly counsel from parents, friends, pastors, etc. God gives us wisdom to make these decisions– there is no reason a woman should be limited in her choice just because she is a woman.
I guess I just don’t understand how having the ability of childbirth somehow limits a woman’s choices in matters of education. Yes, family is a first priority– but it is also a first priority for the husband as much as for the wife. And when work or education gets in the way of a husband’s commitment to his family, he should reevaluate his priorities. But just the act of going to school or having a job does not limit his ability to be a husband or father. It is only when the time spent at school or work is abused that it is questioned. So why is it said that these things alone– education, work– limit the ability of a woman to be a wife or mother? I have yet to see a valid reason as to why there is this double standard when educational decisions are made.
April 5, 2007 at 10:17 pm
Corrie,
You are absolutely correct….where does it say in Scripture that a girl or a wife are to fulfilling the calling of the father? And in some patriarchal circles, young men are also expected to do this, even after marriage.
April 5, 2007 at 10:23 pm
Allison said “To me, that seems fearful because the parents do not seem to trust that they have raised a daughter who is capable of making her own decisions. ”
Allison, from my experience, the parents do not want daughters who make their own decisions, they want daughters who will do what they are told to do. College might take away from that.
Also, there is also the mindset that sons shouldn’t go to college either, but for different reasons. I think whoever said this, perhaps Corrie or Joan, that the financial issue is a big part of this. I know some people who would agree with me about college don’t feel a need to debate this or discuss it with those who are opposed to college because they think eventually these families will figure it out on their own. My perspective is that there are too many lives at stake to NOT disscuss it. I wish we had “gotten it” earlier than we did. We could have been much better prepared financially for college than we were when we changed horses mid-stream. I also think one of the passages of scripture that surely applies is “father, provoke not your children to anger.” How many disillusioned young people are there, especially girls, who are waiting for prince charming? BTW, has anyone here read So Much More by the Botkin sisters? I have started it several times but never finished. Any thoughts?
April 5, 2007 at 11:44 pm
The saddest thing, to me, about saying “no college for daughters” is that it’s sort of a time-sensitive issue. I went away to college at 18, and living on campus as a freshman, with several hundred other freshmen, was so conducive to forming friendships! Several of my best friends to this day are people I met during those early college years. I have such fond memories of the (yes, occasionally silly) things that we did…
I can remember sometimes including in our fun this one gal who was 26. She had entered college as a junior, after attending community college off and on. (I think her parents secretly hoped she might meet a nice Christian college boy.) I always felt a bit sorry for her, because she was so obviously at a different place in her life than we were. Those 8 years had changed her so much (as they would eventually change all of us). She really tried to join in, but you could tell that our “typical college fun” wasn’t really her cup of tea any more.
So maybe some of these “no college” parents will have a change of heart down the road. But if they wait even a few years to change their minds, they might find that the whole experience will be a lot different for their daughters than it might have been when she was the same age as her classmates. And as I’ve alluded in other comments, college is an excellent place to meet other like-minded Christian guys…unless, like my poor older friend, the age difference is almost too great for you to have much in common with 18-year-olds.
April 6, 2007 at 12:07 am
And oh, yeah…just to clarify…
The sort of “fun” we had NEVER involved the drinking or debauchery that the world typically understands as college fun. Rather, we did things like make “donut runs,” when the one bakery in town would open at 2 a.m. and serve fresh donuts on Friday nights. I can also remember Saran-Wrapping someone’s car, attending free movie nights in the student union building, big groups of us going to the library to study, a bunch of us sitting on the floor, eating popcorn and drinking hot chocolate while laughing hysterically…stuff like that. Nothing scary or sinful, or off-putting, even for a Patriarch.
April 10, 2007 at 6:58 am
Allison wrote, “To me, that seems fearful because the parents do not seem to trust that they have raised a daughter who is capable of making her own decisions. If they have raised her as a godly woman in the LORD, they should trust that IF she does decide to go to college, she will be able to make appropriate decisions as a young adult.”
It is interesting to note that many of these parents don’t even want their daughters attending a RELIGIOUS college. Some of them don’t even want their daughters to learn to drive.
Perhaps they are afraid that if these young ladies are allowed too much freedom, they will be corrupted by the world; and perhaps they are even more afraid that their daughters will discover that the Gospel of Christianity and the Bible is not the same Gospel that has been preached to them by their parent’s cult.
Knowledge is a good thing, as Jesus told the woman at the well, John 4:24 “God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.”
Knowledge of God is paramount, for women as well as for men, and is to be preferred to homemaking skills and “much serving”; as Jesus said of to Martha,Luk 10:41 “Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: Luk 10:42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.”
Most of all, Jesus also said,
Luk 4:18 “The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, Luk 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Luk 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave [it] again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
Luk 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
April 21, 2007 at 9:25 pm
I’m an older student and I don’t regret not going as a young person. I know I’m at a different place, but I just wasn’t ready as a young lady. My parents were a little sad that I didn’t go to college, but they didn’t push me. I just wasn’t ready.
I think there are quite a few older students now then there were in previous years. I just wanted to let anyone reading this to know that you can go back to school. I’m fortunate in that I have an amazing and supportive husband who has become the house husband. But, please if you are or know a woman who feels like she missed the boat….encourage her to jump back on.
There is hope for any woman who wants to change her course.
I wasn’t sure if I was making the right choice and my counselor told me of a woman who finished her Library Science Degree when she was just in her 60’s.
I really would like to see more families encourage their children to higher education, but I just want people to know you can go back. It’s so important to realize that.
April 24, 2007 at 1:33 am
Hi, Heather…
Just to clarify, I think college can be a great experience for anyone at any time in his or her life. Why I commented earlier that it’s kind of a time-sensitive issue is because, if you’re a single gal who would love to meet a nice guy (the young Prairie Muffin’s goal!), then being at college when you’re roughly the same age as most of the other students will probably help you have an easier time socially…especially if you’re living on campus.
I mean, of course one can go to college at any point. You’re right, it’s never too late. But college is going to be a very different experience if you’re 45 and a commuter than it would have been if you were 18, hanging out with a ton of other 18-year-olds. That’s all I meant by a “time-sensitive issue.”
But then again, from what I’ve been reading, folks in the Prairie Muffin world don’t even believe in having their daughters meet and select husbands on the basis of attraction and love. Rather, they promote parent-controlled courtship or even betrothal (which is basically arranged marriage). So I suppose my scenario of college as a good place to meet a guy is a moot point when arguing that girls ought to go to college…if you’re living in a Prairie Muffin world, of course.
May 16, 2007 at 1:47 pm
Speaking of arranged marriages, check out these links:
http://www.bibletopics.com/BIBLESTUDY/92b.htm
http://www.preterism-eschatology.com/Daughters%20and%20Marriage.htm
Next, here’s an official Prairie Muffin endorsement of a courtship site:
http://buriedtreasurebooks.com/weblog/?p=619
Now here’s the kicker. Check out BOTH of these:
http://biblicalexaminer.org/cc/Next%20for%20men.html
http://www.biblicalexaminer.org/w199709.htm
June 18, 2007 at 12:24 pm
Maybe I have a different perspective on this, having come from a poor background on both sides of my family, but I have never connected going to college/not going or working “outside the home”/not doing so with an explicit moral issue. For my devout Christian grandmother, who was lucky enough to graduate from high school, working outside the home was not optional, something she did as an affirmation of self or as a lifestyle choice. She had to do so. Even though her highest aspiration for her daughters was their marriage to a Godly man and being a stay at home mother, they all went to college. It just wasn’t seen as a conflict, but rather an opportunity which they were blessed to have. I guess it’s the class implications of this discussion that I find troubling, since the issue of getting a college degree is all mixed up with the “working outside the home” issue. I know there’s a lot of sneering at two-income families who (it’s assumed) could surely get by if they just would cut out all the extras and be frugal, but that’s not what I see in my own family. The notion that Godly women stay at home is also extremely ahistorical. For most of human existence, women have worked just like any other adult–whether that was managing a medieval English estate, farming the family plot in Africa, as a weaver in a Spanish town, as a factory hand in an industrial-revolution-era mill in nineteenth-century New England, or whatever. Granted, many of the jobs everyone used to do were family-based rather than company-based as they are now, and I definitely think that was preferable, but the model of “homemaker” held up as the highest calling of women is an artifact of a particular historical moment rather than as a lifeway explicitly ordained by God.
The question of protecting your child from sin by not sending them to college is also strange. Even if you seal your child in a box from birth, sin will still be there. I suppose this idea is all too reminiscent of the same reasons why radical islamists refuse to teach girls to read. Plus, it’s important for Christians, both male and female, to engage with intellectual culture on that level and in that milieu. If your child isn’t equipped to do that by the age of eighteen, then I feel their faith is undeveloped and untested. And I really don’t think it’s possible to engage with that culture on any sort of serious level unless you have the credentials! Sorry, even if you’re an incredibly well-read high school graduate, you’ll never be taken seriously as a cultural critic without a college degree, and it’s probable that there are lacunae in your education which prevent those to whom you’re speaking from accepting your arguments as legitimate. Plus, surely wisdom in the lies of the world is particularly important for mothers of children, so they can discern and answer the lies secularism tells their children?
June 21, 2007 at 12:08 am
I have a daughter in college (a very nice university and she’s doing very well, Dean’s List every term), one more who will probably attend, and two who won’t (the others are too young to tell yet).
Frankly, I don’t like the either/or mentality in either camp (I seem to be quite the contrarian today).
There is absolutely no good reason to frame this as go to college OR be uneducated, any more than there is any excuse for framing it as college OR wife and mother.
Both of these are false dichotomies and I find them equally muddleheaded and wrong.
Some of the most ignorant, uneducated people I know have college degrees. Some of the smartest, most educated people I know don’t. Naturally, the reverse is also true. Point is, college isn’t what makes a person educated or not- you do that for yourself. Some people use college for that, others just use college for the credential (I would say this is true of the majority of college students, based on how many times a day my college daughter hears an education major whining about why does she need to know this?) Some people educate themselves just as well or better without college. It’s quite possible. It’s not even rare.
There is just not a good reason for college to be the default choice. It’s not for everybody. My husband didn’t go to college until he was around forty years old. He would not have been ready for it at 20. Public schools failed him that badly. It didn’t do much but give him a credential that has turned out to be unnecessary for his field after all.
I dropped out of college without so much as an AA, but my husband will tell you the only reason he was able to succeed in college was because I ‘homeschooled’ him. He will also tell people that he has the degree but I have the education, and he’s not kidding or just being sweet.
College just is *not* synonymous with education, and I think it is misrepresenting Carmon’s points to frame them as being against ‘education.’ Nobody has come out in opposition to education. Even though I disagree very strongly with those who suggest it is a sin for girls to go to college, I am fairminded enough to recognize that they are NOT saying ‘girls shouldn’t be educated.’ They just don’t think college is the only way or the best way to an education, and sometimes this is perfectly true.
June 21, 2007 at 3:44 pm
Deputy headmistress:
There are many folks in the patriocentric camp who believe that girls are not to be educated outside of the domestic arts once they are older than upper elementary age. Have you come across this mindset?
On this blog we realize that there is a difference between attending college and being educated. But we also promote the choice of formal education as an option for young women. what Carmon said that prompted my comments was when she quoted Chesterton.
April 24, 2008 at 2:04 pm
I enjoyed reading all of the commnents. I lived with a “vision forum” family for almost 2 years. I gave a couple hours of help a day in exchange for room and board.
I also worked at a job outside the house during the day. I can’t even begin to tell you how many times the husband and wife tried to talk me into quitting my job. The wife once told me that I was not ready to get married until I had learned homemaking skills and learned how to run a household.
I can remember her husband asking me why I needed money. I said for health, savings fund, car, future school, et… He said that iF i didn’t have a car I wouldn’t need a job. He then asked why I would even want to go to college. I said so I coupld support myself and (I am becoming a nurse).I also want to help people.Once I get married,then I will help my husband. He said that was an unbiblical goal.He said my only goal should be to prepare myself for marriage. Thank the Lord, I am out. I have cut ties. I am running as fast as I can from those people until I can heal from all the pain and craziness that I endured. I am going to a Chritian counselor for it.
Another thing, I am not Catholic, but I have many friends who are. They are devout Catholics who love the Lord with all their heart. I am even in a Bible study with mixed protestants and Catholics. We major on our common faith in God. It is awesome.
I dont’understnad why the Botkins would quote Chesterton. It seems very hypocritical of me, since “narrow minded people” such as themselves probably don’t even see Catholocism as a Christian denomination, which it is. Chesterton is awesome. He is indeed a Christian. I read lots of Catholic literature. Awesome stuff!
But don’t quote people to further your own agenda when, ugh….. never mind, there was a point.
April 24, 2008 at 2:12 pm
Last thing……
Here’s the scary part. The family I lived with was borderline cultish….
When I moved in, the only expecations were as follows:
1)give 2 hours a day 5 days a week around my 1ork schedule
2)go to church and grow in my walk with Christ
By the time I moved out, here is how much they changed over time, they also got more conservative over the time I was there:
1)give help when they needed me,this included a lot of saturday nights
2)had to have my bedroom open and organized the way they wanted,they even told me what I was allowed to have in there, and how it was to be decorated
3)said I had to participate in family worship
4) I had to go to their church and not the church of my choice
5) they were always treating me like they felt sorry for me since I never met their standards.
I was modest yet did not wear ankle length dresses( I wore pants)They were trying to help me conform to a Godly woman.
Note: I am also 25.
April 24, 2008 at 2:53 pm
Michelle, I have two questions, if I may ask —
How did you happen to end up living with this couple? Were you hired on as a live-in maid or a nanny, or did they advertise that they had a room for rent, and would accept housework in exchange for rent?
And, what denomination were they? did they come right out and condemn Catholicism?
April 24, 2008 at 4:04 pm
Michelle, this is an amazing testimonial and I am glad you shared it with us. I hope that reading on this blog will bring some healing into your life. Please join our discussions and give us your insights, too. We are glad you are here!!!
April 24, 2008 at 5:25 pm
Michelle,
Your list of requirements reminded my of the requirements that were part of my Christian high school in order to earn privileges. It was all self-driven and independent, so if you did things like memorize Scripture and performed a certain number of hours doing Christian service, you could get one of three levels of greater freedom. You couldn’t have any demerits or lunch detention or detention. You had to have all your homework done. You had to achieve a high level of work and have good grades.
Now, as a very self-motivated student and typical only child, I generally and organically wanted to do these things naturally without motivating reward. But the lists encourage motivation in the unmotivated student. So for a child, this sounds like a great system and a great standard, but does an adult need this? There are standards and there are standards.
April 24, 2008 at 5:59 pm
” So for a child, this sounds like a great system and a great standard, but does an adult need this? There are standards and there are standards.”
Is this not one of the root problems of the patriarchal system? Everyone is encouraged to remain as children except the fathers – sons and daughters always submissive to father, wife to husband, etc. It’s a system which perpetuates eternal children rather than teaching and encouraging growth to spiritual maturity and responsibility. We are commanded to grow in godliness and maturity, allowing the Holy Spirit to guide us to that maturity. But then again, I guess it would be difficult to retain control over adults who are responsible for themselves and their own reasoning processes.
April 24, 2008 at 6:27 pm
“Is this not one of the root problems of the patriarchal system? Everyone is encouraged to remain as children except the fathers – sons and daughters always submissive to father, wife to husband, etc. It’s a system which perpetuates eternal children rather than teaching and encouraging growth to spiritual maturity and responsibility. We are commanded to grow in godliness and maturity, allowing the Holy Spirit to guide us to that maturity. But then again, I guess it would be difficult to retain control over adults who are responsible for themselves and their own reasoning processes.”
Sandy, you have no idea how right you are. I’ve heard patriarchal father’s tell their daughters that the Holy Spirit won’t speak to them… well, without first speaking to him since he is their authority. It sickens me now just to think about it.
Michelle, I’m sorry to hear about your experience. That kind of harping can be more destructive that we realize. I hope your journey out of it is freeing and complete. You have had a taste of what an entire life in that setting can be like; imagine the poor girls who are born into that and are brainwashed to have no defense for their perfectly natural and human need for some autonomy. It is absolutely smothering for some. Thanks for sharing and reminding us to pray for all in that situation!
April 24, 2008 at 6:28 pm
If sons are always submissive to their fathers, are waited on by their mothers and sisters and are sheltered from all contact with “the world” from birth until they finally leave home, how are they ever supposed become men in their own right, be able to make it in the business world, and care for their own wives and children?
They will grow up to be good-for-nothings.
April 24, 2008 at 6:44 pm
“If sons are always submissive to their fathers, are waited on by their mothers and sisters and are sheltered from all contact with “the world” from birth until they finally leave home, how are they ever supposed become men in their own right, be able to make it in the business world, and care for their own wives and children?
They will grow up to be good-for-nothings.”
Little ‘lords’ who will not be able to handle anything that happens to them out in the world.
I always chuckle when I think ot the patriarchal man who had to deal with a very rich, smart woman CEO in business. He just hated it but had to as she was his best customer. Of course, he groveled when necessary.
Instead of learning from her genius in business, he hated her for it.
April 24, 2008 at 7:17 pm
“Instead of learning from her genius in business, he hated her for it.”
Pro 17:10 A reproof entereth more into a wise man than an hundred stripes into a fool.
April 24, 2008 at 7:20 pm
“Little ‘lords’ who will not be able to handle anything that happens to them out in the world.”
Yes, and who will have so little in common with normal people that they will be unable to relate to them in a business setting. Homeschooled kids are protected from a lot of bad stuff, but they also miss aout on quite a bit of the good, and when they finally leave the nest, they are like immigrants entering a foreign country.
April 25, 2008 at 11:29 am
“Homeschooled kids are protected from a lot of bad stuff, but they also miss aout on quite a bit of the good, and when they finally leave the nest, they are like immigrants entering a foreign country.”
Some of them! Many of us purpose to not let this happen to our children and are quite successful at it! 🙂
April 25, 2008 at 11:49 am
Hmm, wrote that in a hurry… It should have read,
“Homeschooled kids are protected from a lot of bad stuff, but a good many also miss out on quite a bit of the good, and when these kids finally leave the nest, they are like immigrants entering a foreign country.”
Sorry about that, didn’t mean to slam ALL homeschooled kids.
April 25, 2008 at 1:10 pm
Cynthia, well said and I would agree!!
April 25, 2008 at 3:59 pm
“imagine the poor girls who are born into that and are brainwashed to have no defense for their perfectly natural and human need for some autonomy. It is absolutely smothering for some. Thanks for sharing and reminding us to pray for all in that situation”
I actually know someone who I believe fits this description … it’s been scary to interact with her. We REALLY need to pray for these girls big time, on so many levels.
Michelle, I repeat what thatmom said, we are so glad you are here! I read what you said on Molly’s blog, and now I find you here. I really admire your courage in breaking away from this junk you’ve told us about.
April 26, 2008 at 4:11 pm
Hello!
I’ve just found your blog.
What a topic!
I wasn’t raised in the US. I don’t live there either! But I’m half American and I had a lot to do with US missionaries in my home country, so I was exposed a little to American culture and the American conservative Christianity.
When I first got married, I read some books that encouraged women to stay at home, homeschool their children, be homemakers and have home businesses, etc… (my mom gave them to me)
So far, so good. But they also encouraged very family-centered worship, separatism, counter-cultural living and no college education. The author called college something devilish!
I never went to college, but I wish I had gone. I took shortcuts and became an ESL teacher, and then went on to Bible school in Germany where I met my husband.
I was a bit too focused on getting married, and didn’t first make sure I was well grounded in my beliefs. I was very naive, and being the sort of person that would pick up a book, read it, and believe everything in it (especially if it claimed to be Christian!), I soon was full of condemnation for having left my parents church, my parent’s home and country before getting married. I even thought I should join the skirts only community…. (nothing wrong with it, by the way!)
Now I live in Germany. There’s a community of very conservative Christians in our village, people who left Germany and went to Russia. One or two generations later, they have returned. These people have a separatist mentality: they have their own churches, are very focused on the family, have more children than the average,the women are homemakers, wear their hair long, often with a little head covering, and obviously only wear long dresses.
Nothing wrong with any of the above, but I don’t think that any of it makes them more Christian or spiritual than anyone else. It’s cultural.
I think Christians need to be sensitive to culture and able to differentiate what is cultural and what is godly or not godly.
A long skirt is not godlier than a pair of jeans. Long hair on a woman isn’t godlier than short hair. They are all secondary issues.
I think the issue of education is secondary too. Nowhere in the Bible do we find that children ought not to go to school. (there were no public schools back then…) and we don’t find any support for not sending our children to college either.
As someone said, it shouldn’t be a matter of one or the other. Nothing is keeping a woman who goes to college from learning basic homemaking skills! And in the worst case, when she does marry, she will learn them soon enough!
April 26, 2008 at 4:42 pm
“(there were no public schools back then… and we don’t find any support for not sending our children to college either.”
Actually, that’s what makes this whole thing so ironic — there WERE “public schools” in first century Judea. Nearly every village had a rabbi who taught the boys (and rarely, girls) reading, writing, and the basics of religion; when boys “graduated” from the tutelage of the village rabbi, they could either continue their religious studies, learn their father’s trade, or apprentice to a craftsman.
April 29, 2008 at 10:41 am
I’d never thought about that… maybe they are basing their teaching on the fact that girls were rarely educated by the rabbi?
lol.
Thanks for that.
April 29, 2008 at 2:13 pm
I doubt it, because these folks are also saying that ALL schools, public or religious are contrary to the will of God and should be abandoned in favor of homeschooling for both boys and girls.
This is an utterly new teaching, dating to the writings of John Rousas Rushdoony in the late 20th century, and has never been a part of the teachings of either Judaism nor historical Christianity.
September 18, 2008 at 5:23 pm
Hello,
I’m a single 18 year old woman in her first year of university. I am happy to say that my parents did not discourage me from experiencing life outside of our home. I am living away from home and I live in university residence. I love my life, I love university, I love learning and I always have. I speak 3 languages fluently, I play the piano, I sing in a choir, and I have written many articles for the newspaper. I’ve been travelling alone since I was 13 years old and even then at such a young age I knew that you can’t fully live life until you live in anothers shoes.
I feel sorry for Gracie, as charming and smart as she might be. Although I don’t know her personally it sounds like she has led a boxed in sheltered life and it sounds like she will continue to do so. Although I don’t believe in judging her and I do respect her choices I can’t help but wonder if she even understands what kind of life she is getting herself into.
November 1, 2008 at 2:43 pm
are you people muslim? they feel this way about woman too.
November 1, 2008 at 3:19 pm
I certainly don’t speak for anyone else here, but I am definitely not anything like a Muslim, save for believing that God’s laws and statues are sure and non-negotiable. But unlike a Muslim, I am not under the law of sin and death but am under God’s grace and His forgiveness. I suppose that like a Muslim, I believe that God is sovereign, and I should have a healthy, holy fear of Him as King of the Universe, Ruler of All there is and my Creator. But I think we part ways from there.