One of the frequent accusations hurled against True Womanhood goes something like this: “what in the world could be so important that you have talked about it for thousands of comments and multiple threads? Don’t you all have something better to do with your time?” or conversely: “this blog is nothing but a bunch of angry, bitter women gossiping about some sweet ladies.”
The answer to the first question is, quite simply, we are talking in such depth about the thorny problem of patriocentricity (a term first coined here by thatmom, Karen Campbell). It has been hotly debated here as to whether or not patriocentricity is heretical. I leave that for the readers to decide. The indexes are a best effort to provide a road map to this extensive discussion, along with an (as accurate as possible) MLA cited extant article list of all the articles, blogs, books, videos, and sound recordings that were discussed in each thread. That listing is an education in and of itself, seperate from the actual discussion.
The answer to the second question depends on your viewpoint. I would argue strongly that holding teachers accountable for their words, theology, and teaching is not gossip. Many of the things discussed are works of literature and film, and as such, they will be open to literary and/or scholarly criticism long before their theology is even considered.
This is a work of love for me. I have come to know, admire, and love many of the frequent commenters and contributors here on TW. The women here, first and foremost, desire to seek hard after God, and Truth (Phillippians 3:8). I have them to thank for driving me deep into the marrow of God’s holy and inspired word. I said in thread 2:
Speaking of which, I have you ladies to thank for getting me deeper in the Word than I have ever been before…and as my husband was teasing me…it’s addictive
.I keep finding something else that is fascinating me that I find myself quite sad when I have to leave my devotional time. I never thought that would happen! Now I get what a Sunday School teacher used to say: ” It’s like a love letter…and don’t you want to sit there and read your lover’s letter over and over again…” For someone who has spent such a long time in the “Christian” community but with really shallow roots, this has been an amazing time for me. So thank you, dear ones, for sharpening my faith and inspiring me to go deeper with God.
I hope that each visitor to True Womanhood, if nothing else, walks away seeking God, and what HE says, through His Word, and not what any man or woman says God has said.
The index is explained in more depth within the PDF files- the arrangement is not alphabetical, and it is not comprehensively cross indexed. It is meant to be a road map and is arranged in order of the topics as they occured within the discussion. The errors within the index are all mine. I would appreciate emails with corrections (to spelling or numbers) not topics. I realize I am writing with a bias, as I have participated in the discussions since the beginning; some of my topic groupings foreshadow later discussions. I find it interesting that many of the blog posts from patriarchal sources that have caused controversies have since been removed. Those that have preserved screen shots- please email us at milleniumwoman@gmail.com. Please check back to this thread as more indexes will be added as they become available.
It is True Womanhood’s express position that all view points are welcome. As the purpose of the blog is to discuss what a thinking Christian woman looks like in the 21st Century, we realize that the discussion will only profit if many women from many walks of life can discuss the topics at hand in a place that will not be censored. We have however, blocked posts when they are not related to the topic at hand; when they have devolved into personal attacks; or when malice is clearly sought by the commenter. We have not deleted posts by commenters who have disagreed with the main view point held by the majority. You can read through the many threads where there has been honest, respectful discussion on differing viewpoints. We at True Womanhood endeavor to operate in an atmosphere of grace, understanding, and mercy. Sometimes we get angry, sometimes we are misunderstood, but we never, ever intentionally wish malice or harm to any man or woman that may come our way in the blogosphere. We politely agree to disagree sometimes- and that is possible. As “iron sharpens iron” we seek to be Bereans, and search out the teachings of earthly fallible teachers against the plumb line of the whole and infallible Word of God.
There are many of the faith present here on True Womanhood, from diverse backgrounds such as Roman Catholic, Reformed, Protestant, Orthodox, Anglican – the list goes on and on, and changes by the day. It is to this end that we request commenters to be mindful and respectful of the diversity at hand, and seek not to tear down our brothers and sisters.
Thread 1 is where the patriocentric discussion begins. It is hard to quantify: looking at the index is barely scratching the surface. While it was started to discuss So Much More, the book by Anna Sofia and Elizabeth Botkin, it also discusses the entire theological viewpoint of the patriocentric groups, and the implications thereof.
Thread two is clearly a continuation of Visionary Daughters, Thread 1, but its name is
somewhat of a misnomer. The two most discussed works are actually Return of the
Daughters and Passionate Housewives, Desperate for God. Both were released in late
2007, after the first visionary daughters thread had run its course. Return of the
Daughters is a documentary film that fleshes out the ideas presented in So Much More by
Anna Sofia and Elizabeth Botkin. Passionate Housewives is a book, written by Jennie
Chancey and Stacy McDonald. The main topic of discussion actually revolves around
(directly or indirectly) the idea of women studying theology and the Scriptures, and
whether that is acceptable or not.
Thread three begins where thread two ends: the subject (and definition of) gossip and slander, Matt 18 proceedings, and how that relates to examining the teachings of a ministry. It is in thread three that the discussion begins to expand to a more “global” discussion of Patriocentricity versus a specific discussion of books and films produced by Vision Forum Ministries. The reality occurring at the time of the thread’s publication: True Womanhood had caught the attention of Patriocentric groups and supporters, and they were trying their best to scare the women commenting on TW and shut down conversations regarding Patriocentricity. Needless to say, it didn’t work. However, the large balance of this thread is dealing with accusations of gossip, misconstrued words, and the need for honest and straightforward discussion. The other major subject: “millstone manufacturing” and “spin”.
June 27, 2008 at 12:03 am
I wanted to be the first to post a comment on these indexes. These indexes are extensive and filled with valuable information, expecially for the newcommer to TW. I am Joy’s husband and I want to say, so there can be no backlash in this area, that I approve of her working on these indexes and I believe that they are for the betterment of all involved and will become involved in the discussion.
I also want to add that even though these indexes take a good 8-10 hours of work for my beloved she has not “sacrificed” her family one second. Some may say that this is wrong and working out of the home or something like that but it isn’t. It is for the betterment of God’s kingdom and the understanding of those that visit TW or investigate patriocentricity. These indexes were written while I was with my children, spending time with them just me and them. During fathering time, not babysitting time as some like to call it.
Please enjoy these indexes and I hope that they help to further your understanding and interest in the topics at hand. I am proud of you Beloved for doing this. Ani L’Dodi, v’Dodi Li (Hebrew for Song of Solomon 6:3)
June 27, 2008 at 1:20 am
WOW. What a labor of love. THANK YOU so much for this treasure trove. What a gift, absolute GIFT, to those just now considering joining the patriocentric world.
My only negative thought is that I can’t tell you how much I wish something like this would have existed 10 years ago, when I first started down the patrio path, a path that would lead me to so much heartache and pain and, truly, a level of spiritual death that I am only now starting to heal from.
THANK YOU, thank you, thank you, to the whole TW crew for providing a forum like this, for indexing it, for promoting further discussion, for everything.
June 27, 2008 at 6:04 am
thread 1 pdf, page 12 (or 11?) you list CArolyn “Justice” James–should be Custis.
great job!
June 27, 2008 at 7:55 am
Joy (and all the regular contributors to this blog), you have done a great work here. This is a truly amazing resource you have put together. This blog is more comprehensive and more in depth than any book on the subject could ever be. We’ve already seen the fruit of it – how it has ministered to women hurt by the evils of patriocentricity, how it has been a signpost out of this damaging lifestyle, and how it has served as a warning for people who were on the verge of getting drawn in.
May God richly bless you, Joy, for this work, and Karen, who has provided this opportunity for discussion, and all who have contributed here and sought to know and understand God better.
June 27, 2008 at 10:37 am
Oh how funny. Justice….I’ll have to fix that.
Question? Can you all access the links? I told Adobe Acrobat to leave that functionality in it. (so you could just click and go to whatever website). I need to fix that if the links aren’t accessible!
June 27, 2008 at 12:32 pm
Wow. Just Wow. This is incredible, Joy. Thank you so much for all your hard work on this. Absolutely amazing!
June 27, 2008 at 7:43 pm
I’ve opened the files and skimmed over them and. . . wow. . . what a labor of love! Thank you. . . may it bless many.
June 27, 2008 at 8:28 pm
Yes, I can open the links. This is beyond awesome, Joy. I echo Molly’s sentiments… if only this were around years ago! May it bless all who were/are getting involved in the pats.
June 27, 2008 at 8:40 pm
Joy,
this is a simply amazing effort on your part. It’s a little overwhelming to even realise we’ve been this busy on this topic for that long, and then to realise you’ve been working to go through all of that just … wow!
Thank you so very much for this. It’s such a gift
June 29, 2008 at 5:44 pm
Wow, Joy thanks! A great resource.
And Thanks to James for his comment. Well said!
June 30, 2008 at 3:40 pm
This is amazing. Thank you so much!!!!
July 9, 2008 at 12:23 pm
[...] see the index post here, for a detailed road map to our conversations. Possibly related posts: (automatically [...]
July 9, 2008 at 1:57 pm
So ladies when can we purchase the TW book?
July 9, 2008 at 2:18 pm
ha ha, from what I hear, Anne and Cally are already working on one.
I’ve dreamed of it, but I don’t have the time resources right now. The problem with TW would be knowing where to start! There is so much good stuff here.
August 23, 2008 at 12:41 am
“Patriocentricity”? Patricentric is the correct base word; patricentricity would be the correct spelling.
August 23, 2008 at 4:16 am
Katherine, that would be what makes it a play on words
Obviously “patricentricity” would be the technically correct derivative of “patricentric”, but that’s really the fun thing about language– once you know how to use it correctly, you can mischievously misuse it at will! Sort of like . . . pulling a linguistic Picasso.
If you are interested in origin, I believe it was Karen Campbell who first used that particular spelling in this context. The discussion in the patriocentric-themed threads focuses on very specific groups of people involved in a specific, Christian patricentric movement; the term “patriocentric” arose not out of their studies of patricentricity as a whole, but rather of the patricentric teachings of these very specific groups. If you google “patriocentric” it nets a much more topical set of results than merely googling “patricentric” would do (not that researching patricentricity through the ages isn’t educational as well, of course) and so on the whole it has become very efficient to have the seperate word coined for this particular area of discussion.
Hope that cleared up any confusion you might have
August 23, 2008 at 4:19 am
(although I should add that I have also seen “patrio-centric” used interchangeably with “ethnocentric” which just plain confuses me, so I won’t say it’s one hundred percent efficient . . . simply a little more so than the alternative)
October 27, 2008 at 7:03 pm
Uhh, Moderators, comments #18 and #19 need to be attended to. Thanks!
October 28, 2008 at 3:17 pm
Help! I have been reading VF and lots of other patriarchal information for the past 2 years. I have been trying to adapt it into my own life, while feeling a bit hopeless and overwhelmed. I read Created to be His Helpmeet and that compounded my discouragement. I want to be all I can be in Christ, and I want to support my beloved the best I can. Why do I feel a black cloud after reading Helpmeet and the patriarchal works? I can’t find anything theologically wrong with either. Please, please, could you point out what is wrong with the Patriarch movement? Could you do so IN A NUTSHELL so I know where to go from here? Thanks so much. I feel like I’m drowning. I feel like a big disappointment to my God. Thanks for your help. Teri
October 28, 2008 at 3:39 pm
Teri,
You are not a big disappointment to your God. I totally understand your feeling of drowning and discouragement and hopelessness and being overwhelmed. That is what comes from following man’s ways instead of walking by the Spirit.
In a nutshell the problem with the patriarchal movement is that it is bondage. It is a manmade system.
Your husband is like no other husband. You are like no other wife. When we try and follow what someone else THINKS about submission or what hoops they have to jump through in order to please their own husband (CTBHHM) then we will end up feeling like a failure.
Relationships are organic. They are not black and white nor is there a formula for being a “biblical woman”.
You feel like a black cloud is over your head when reading their materials because that is called discernment.
What I had to do is get rid of all that extra material and start reading the WHOLE counsel of God’s word. Any time we go to the Bible with an agenda and a certain point to prove, we will go off the tracks. I can prove just about anything using the Bible. I can prove that polygamy is Biblical, for instance, using the same hermeneutics that the patriocentrists use to prove that women have only one role and purpose in this life or that females shouldn’t go to college or to the mission field and that they should always be under some male “covering” (btw, covering is NOT a biblical term at all, Jesus Christ is all the covering we need).
I can’t stress how important it is to be a student of the Word and not what man thinks about the Word. Also, return to your first Love and do the deeds you did at first. I did that because I remember a time (when I was first a believer) where I was unencumbered by the patriarchal bondage and I loved the Lord with all my heart, soul and mind and my whole being wanted to obey His word so that I could abide in Him and His love.
There is a TON that is theologically wrong with the patriarchal movement because they do not take the whole counsel of God’s word. They are one-issue people and they hunt and peck through the Bible to find verses that “prove” what they want to say.
If they were true disciples they would be totally wrapped up in serving others and not constantly yammering on about how they have the God-given right to be served.
October 28, 2008 at 4:50 pm
Teri,
(((hugs)))
You are feeling the heavy cloud of what life is like under the law. That’s because the patriarchy teachings are law. When I came out of patriarchy (after 8 years of living WHOLLY in it, thinking it was God’s will), I became aware that I’d left the sweet simplicity of Christ for “another gospel.”
The patriarchy gospel is FULL of all the things you have to do in order to make God happy. Law, law, and more law. Who can focus on Christ when they’re so busy focusing on the many many things they have to think and do? And who can focus on Christ when they are putting their human husband in the place of Christ?
One of the best things I did was to read Galatians over and over again. I can’t tell you how amazing it was, particularly chapter 5. It put it all in perspective. I’d been adding things to the Gospel, and because of that, “Christ was of no effect to me.” I missed the sweet simplicity of walking in the Spirit, because I’d exchanged it for a man-made system of works-based righteousness.
An excellent (short and simple and very cheap) book that really hits on why patriarchy is so desctructive is the little gem, “Families Where Grace is in Place.” Talk about a little wimpy looking book, but it will slay the giant of patriarchal theology, just as David’s little stone took down Goliath, and help get you back on to the sweet simple path of following Christ.
In a nutshell? I would say this:
Patriarchy made me forget my First Love. I was too busy scrambling around trying to perform all the things I thought He wanted me to do that I never had the time to just sit at His feet and rest in His affection.
Much Love,
A (Former Quiver Full, Patriarchal, pro-Debi Pearl’s book CTBHH, etc, etc)
Sister in Christ
October 28, 2008 at 7:41 pm
Teri,
The above two points are great: bathe yourself in Scripture and understand that the the Gospel is about freedom, not bondage. How those have helped me (and continue to do so).
Another thing I’m beginning to do, and wish I had done so long ago, is to read sincere books (or articles) from the OTHER point of view. Sometimes a philosophy or method can sound so perfect and logical that you just don’t see any holes. But if you can find good writings on the other side of the issue, you are more likely to see inconsistencies (maybe even on both sides!).
Lately, I’ve been doing this with the topic of parenting. The book on my bedside table right now is “Grace-Based Parenting” by Tim Kimmel. I’m only part-way through, but have found it refreshing so far.
And, yay! My library has “Families Where Grace is in Place.” That’s next on my list.