parenting models in the church (Karen)

April 17, 2008

parenting models in the church (Karen)

Posted by millenniumwoman under 1
[212] Comments

Several commenters on this blog have been interested in discussing the various parenting models that are popular within the Christian church today. I am aware that this may open up the flood gates of contention but several comments on this blog and on the “millstone” thread on my thatmom blog make me think that this might be a good topic for discussion.

I just want to say ahead of time that I hope we will all be exceedingly gracious and kind as we explore the teachings that are popular within Christian circles today regarding raising, disciplining and discipling children. And I want to encourage us to not only share our own views and philosophies but also to show the Biblical precedent for our choices.

Any thoughts?

Like this:

Be the first to like this post.

212 Responses to “parenting models in the church (Karen)”

Cynthia Gee Says:

April 17, 2008 at 9:59 pm
Well,about a year ago I was made aware of the existence of Hephzibah House, a private lock-down facility for delinquent girls in Winona Lake, Indiana, run by a patriarchal preacher, Ronald E. Williams, pastor of Believer’s Baptist Church in Winona Lake.

I had visited a blog where I read a lengthy tract on child-rearing published by Pastor Williams, which I will include at the end of this letter (hold on to your lunch, it makes the Pearls look like Dr. Spock.) I did some investigating, and was horrified to find that a man with these views actually runs a “school” and has custody of young women. I did some more investigation, and found that while allegations of abuse at the school had indeed been made over the years and some local papers had published articles about Hepzibah House, nothing much had ever come of it, as Rev. Williams is a man of considerable influence in his community and county.

Last month, nearly one year later, I received an email from a former inmate of Hepzibah House, and I recieved it under very curious circumstances.
It seems that a couple of years ago at Hepzibah House, a young lady had made friends with another young lady named Cynthia Gee, who had been detained at the school for a short time and who had either escaped or had otherwise disappeared.

In trying to contact this other Cynthia Gee, this young lady had found my name using a Google search, and had written to me, thinking that I was her friend.
We exchanged correspondence, and it seems that some of the young women who were residents at Hepzibah House over the years have started a blog where they have documented what goes on there, in hopes that people will read it and take up the cause of bringing the abuses at Hepzibah House to light.

Here is their blog:
http://www.formerhephzibahgirls.webs.com/

http://formerhephzibahgirls.webs.com/survivorstatements.htm

http://formerhephzibahgirls.webs.com/links.htm

…here is the web address of Hepzibah House (funny, it was all there when I checked a month ago, with tracts for sale and links and everything, but now only this skeleton page remains online, and it’s the same way in the Google cache):
http://www.hephzibahhouse.org/

…here is the address of William’s church (the church webpage no longer exists, though it did three weeks ago):

BELIEVER’S BAPTIST CHURCH, 574-269-2375
508 SCHOOL STREET, WARSAW IN 46580

And here, finally, is William’s lengthy take on child rearing, it’s not for the faint of heart:

The Correction and Salvation of Children
By Ronald E. Williams
Believers Baptist Church, 508 School St., Winona Lake, IN 46590 (219) 269-2376
TWO DIRECTIVES OF SOLOMON FOR THE CORRECTION AND SALVATION OF CHILDREN
“Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.” Proverbs 23:13,14
THE FIRST DIRECTIVE: The perception of my duty and the promise involved if I carry out my duty
A. The perception of my duty
“Withhold not correction from the child.”
Through a negative admonition, “withhold not,” Solomon is encouraging us to perceive what our duty is with regard to our child. One might ask, Why is it necessary to be told what our duty is? Because we would naturally “withhold” instead of obeying. The Scripture indicates in Proverbs 13:24, “He that spareth his rod, hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.” Many parents today are in a position where they Biblically hate their children because they are not acting against their natural feelings and disciplining themselves towards the Godly habit-pattern of consistent correction. In other words, it takes work, wisdom, self discipline, and
Godliness to correct children the way the Lord wants.
Fight your feelings
The concept of having to be told what to do in order that we can combat our natural feelings is illustrated in other areas of our lives. The Lord Jesus, for example, taught in Matthew 5:28 that it is wrong for a man to look lustfully upon a woman, implicitly telling us to not do that. One could ask, Why does He teach such a thing? Because men naturally look upon women in a lustful way. In fact, any man who claims that he has never had a problem in this area is either a liar or he is dead! Just as the Scripture indicates “the eyes of man are never satisfied” (Proverbs 27:20). Therefore, the Lord, recognizing our weakness, has admonished men not to look lustfully at women. Men must not operate on the basis of their natural inclinations, but on the basis of what is right, controlling their feelings and the flesh in the process.
Another example would be in the area of a man loving his wife. The Apostle Paul in Ephesians 5:25 says, “Husbands, love your wives even as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for it.” Why did the Spirit of God believe it necessary to instruct a man through the Apostle Paul to love his wife as Christ loved the church? Because a man would not naturally do this. A man is naturally in love with himself even as that same chapter indicates in 5:29: “For no man ever yet hateth his own flesh but nourisheth and cherisheth it even as the Lord the church.” A man left to his own inclinations and desires will love himself supremely above all others. A Christian, however, who is obedient to the Spirit of God and to the Word of God, will love his wife and not submit to the natural inclination to love himself first; even as the Lord Jesus demonstrated through His supreme example in His love for the church. Therefore, when the Lord gives a negative admonition to parents to “withhold not,” it is in keeping with this Biblical principle of instructing parents to obey where they will have to overcome their natural inclinations, control their emotions and do what is right even when they do not feel like.
Whose job?
Who is to perceive this duty that Solomon outlines? The Hebrew language indicates in this passage through a second person masculine singular suffix that Solomon is probably addressing a man. The context of course, would indicate that the father of the household is the subject of Solomon’s admonition. Solomon, in doing this, is underscoring and agreeing with the rest of Scripture when it teaches that child-training and education is the primary responsibility of the father of that child. The primary responsibility for this vital task is not delegated by God to the mother, Sunday School teacher, pastor, day school teacher, grandparents, or any other person, but is the primary responsibility of the father. Obviously, these other individuals are an invaluable help to the father, especially his wife, but they are helpers only. A father will stand before the judgment seat of Christ and give an account for the spiritual, emotional, and physical welfare and training of his wife and children. It therefore behooves a father to be extremely judicious and cautious in whom he selects to be his helpers in the vital task of training and educating his child. Why?
So as not to compromise the Biblical standard he must inculcate in his children.
This same principle is especially underscored in Deuteronomy 6:7–”And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.” Moses in that Old Testament passage uses a similar ending or suffix on the words in that verse, again indicating that he is addressing the heads of Hebrew households, or more simply, the fathers of each family. Moses, as a spokesman, for the Lord, indicated that God expects the father in the home to diligently train the children in Godliness and in God’s standards.
This concept is not exclusively an Old Testament concept, but is highlighted again in the New Testament. Ephesians 6:4 states: “And ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath, but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.” The Apostle Paul directly addresses fathers in this verse and lays the responsibility for nurture and admonition squarely on their shoulders. So to answer the question, “Who is to perceive this duty of correction,” one must simply answer, it is the responsibility of the father to perceive this duty.
What job needs to be done?
Next we need to ask, what is the duty perceived by the father? Solomon indicates that the duty to be perceived by the father is something he calls “correction.” Correction in the Bible has two basic ideas. The first idea is training through oral instruction. This is a vital part of child- training and cannot be neglected lest the child not receive a balanced instruction from his father. The Scripture indicates that it is the rod and reproof that gives wisdom, not the rod alone (Proverbs 29:15). The other aspect of this word “correction” is training through physical scourging or chastening. Both concepts are involved.
Who is the object of our attention?
With whom is the duty of correction concerned? This passage indicates that “the child” is the object of concern with regard to Godly correction. Many young people, in learning about the Biblical standard of correction, might well ask, who is a child and who is not? The Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament Hebrew Scriptures) uses the word meaning a minor child to translate this word. One could well ask, how old a child should receive physical correction? Or, to put it another way, when is a child not a child?
It is my opinion that the parents of that youngster should decide when a child is no longer a child and when he should no longer receive the correction of which Solomon speaks in this passage. Admittedly, this is not always an easy decision inasmuch as an older child may do unlawful things that the parent believes should be corrected by the rod. I would suggest three simple thoughts as possible helps in determining when a child is no longer a child in need of physical correction. First, when that child starts paying his own bills from his own resources he has probably reached the level of responsibility wherein he will respond better to the reproofs of life given him by the Lord than he will by the rod of correction given him by his earthly father. Second, when that child starts his own household, whether it be as a single adult or as a married adult, he is quite obviously out of the realm of being physically corrected. Third, it is my suggestion that a child in your home be corrected according to his emotional age rather than his physical age.
In my limited experience, I have often encountered a child who physically has attained an age many parents would view as being too old to receive physical correction. However, that same child may be committing extremely immature and irresponsible acts in his life that could well benefit from the rod of correction. With these things in mind, you as a parent can be helped in determining when physical correction with the rod should be used and when it should not. These are not guidelines that should be chiseled in stone but might prove helpful.
One thing is certain, correction with the rod should and must start very early. In fact, correction with the rod should start much earlier than our contemporary godless and irresponsible society believes is normative. The Scripture says, “Chasten thy son while there is hope and let not thy soul spare for his crying” (Proverbs 19:18). In other words, there is a time when there is real hope that a child can be corrected and have his will broken by the parent who uses the rod of correction, and there is a time when that hope diminishes by virtue of the child’s advancing age.
In my position as the director of a rehabilitation ministry for troubled teenage girls, I receive phone calls daily from desperate parents all across the United States. They have children for whom all hope seems to be gone because they did not start the use of the rod of correction while there was hope as the Scriptures mandated. I do not mean to discourage parents with older teenagers, who have suddenly been exposed to God’s inspired instructions in this matter. As long as you have a child under your authority and your home where you can directly supervise and correct him, there still is hope that you may turn that child from his wicked ways and break his will. You may still teach him to submit to authority in his life.
A good illustration of this hope is found in the case of a mother who called me from a distant state about her troubled teenage daughter. This teenager had gotten into such continual mischief and wickedness that the desperate mother went to the local hardware store and purchased a lock and chain with which to lock the girl to her body. This unorthodox measure kept the girl in her home at night but fell far short of Scriptural methodology in changing the heart! I explained to the mother that we did not have room to receive the girl at the time because our beds were filled. However, I mentioned that I could give her a possible answer for her predicament. I also said, “But I doubt that you will follow through.” The mother, hearing that there might be a solution to her crisis, desperately implored, “Yes, I will take your counsel. What is your solution?” I then proceeded to explain that the mother should get a stick that would not break and get after that daughter until the daughter asked for peace in their relationship. The mother hesitated in silence for a time on that long distance telephone call, and then seemingly made a firm commitment before me and the Lord that she would do so. She answered, “Alright, I will!” I then forgot about the mother and her call inasmuch as we receive several calls like this daily.
Three weeks later, I received a phone call from this same mother. I had forgotten who she was and was reminded of her identity only when she reminded me of the lock and chain she had purchased to secure her daughter. I remembered who she was at that point since that was a unique method of restraining the girl. I asked, “Well, what has happened since our last conversation?” The mother replied that she had taken my advice to secure a large stick that would not break, and to quote the mother, “I wore off her behind!” I chuckled at the mother’s response and thoroughly enjoyed the rest of the story. She went on to explain that she was simply amazed and dumbfounded at her daughter’s change of heart following the severe thrashing that the mother gave her. It seems that the daughter, for the first time in sixteen years, chose to obey her mother when she realized that the mother was unflinchingly determined to break the girl’s will and to settle for nothing less than complete obedience. The mother then said, “And it has lasted for three weeks! But I think she needs it again this week.” This dramatic illustration of how one mother solved the problem of breaking the will of her daughter points up how God’s methods really can and do work. But a parent must be fully purposed and determined in his heart that he will obey God no matter what the consequences.
B. The promise involved if I carry out my duty
The second part of the first directive is the promise involved if I carry out my duty. “For if thou beatest him with the rod he shall not die.” The condition of the promise is found in the phrase, “if thou beatest him with the rod.” Who meets this condition? Again, the original Hebrew gives us the clue. Another masculine suffix is used here indicating that the father is probably the one who shoulders the responsibility of meeting this condition. The specific action involved in meeting the condition is summed up by Solomon in the word “beat.” To use this word in connection with child correction conjures up in the listening mind all manner of horrible child abuse through stories vividly displayed by our mass media and by liberal thinking do-gooders. They decry almost any form of child correction beyond praise and persuasive speech or possibly withdrawal of privilege. God however, who knows better than men, and has wisdom that men can never approach, uses a word that is very strong.
The emotional freight connected with this word causes even many fundamental preachers to withdraw from its use. But since God uses the word and the translators of the Authorized Version have used a perfectly good English word, we shall attempt to explain it in its context free of the emotional freight so often connected with its use.
The grammatical form of the word indicates that it takes effort to carry out the conditions of this promise. The Hebrew word “to beat” in this verse is a causal verb that emphasizes that a dad must bring himself to do it. This hearkens back to what was said earlier about having to force ourselves to do what does not come naturally in this area of child correction. Not only must we cause ourselves to “beat our child” but the usage of this particular word indicates that God has designed corporal punishment so that it would cause pain. The word “beat” that is used here is the very same word used in Deuteronomy 25:2,3. In this Deuteronomy passage, it is very clear that the word is used in connection with a physical beating where pain is being inflicted by the beating as a means of punishment ordered by a judge in Israel. By this Scriptural illustration we are absolutely compelled to realize that this word is used in the sense of physical pain being caused by corporal punishment, and, further, that this is God’s very objective!
If we return to our passage in Proverbs 23:13, 14, we see by the context that God is also talking about the theme of physical beating, not a beating with words, withdrawal of privilege, or anything else short of physical chastisement. Some folks have a real problem in thinking of the Lord planning to have a child experience pain during an incident of correction. Those who would have a problem in this area should quickly review Hebrews 12:6-11. There the writer to the Hebrews develops the point that painful chastisement at the hand of God is a very clear mark of being a child of God. Moreover, verse eight indicates that anyone without this chastisement, “whereof all are partakers,” is in reality not a son of God at all and therefore not an object of His filial love.
The world and humanistically-trained minds are repelled in horror at the thought of a God who would deliberately order painful correction of a child and use words as strong as “beat” in ordering parents to carry out that correction. The Scriptures make it abundantly clear that such painful correction is the most loving, wise, and responsible procedure that a Godly parent can follow in developing obedience and character in his child. Therefore, when you hear someone object, “But that will hurt my child,” you can answer, “Precisely, that is God’s goal, that the child be hurt with the pain of the spanking during a session of correction.”
What is the reason for the pain? It delivers, in some mysterious way, the heart of that child from its rebellion, stubbornness, and willfulness. Any regenerate person can see abundant testimony to how this mysterious process works by looking at his or her own life’s experience in walking with his Saviour. God reproves His children many times in very painful ways to deliver their hearts of the same ungodly characteristics.
Ideally, a child should know the reason that he is being dealt with in this way. In other words, he should know the sin or the rule he has broken. He should especially know how he has offended God and broken His moral law and then be called to repentance before God and others who are affected by his sin. When this is done the session of correction has its maximum benefit in the life of the child. “Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child, but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him” (Proverbs 22:15). Mysterious? Yes, but mysterious as it is, the promise is bound in this Scripture that Godly and consistent application of the rod of correction will deliver the foolish rebellion and stubborn willfulness from the heart of a child when his parents have disciplined themselves enough to carry it out.
Correction not a one-time affair
Another condition of the promise Solomon develops in this passage is that correction must be consistent and repetitive. The verb for “beat” that he uses in this verse is not a one-time action. The verb calls for ongoing activity of beating. Therefore a parent may not reasonably expect that one or two times of Biblically beating the child is going to deliver that child once and for all of the rebellious heart with which he was born. However in the same breath, we must emphasize that Godly parents who insist on complete obedience and back up their demands with immediate application of the rod discover to their joy that the need for the rod diminishes as the child recognizes the parents’ determination to apply it when necessary.
Many parents have said to me when being challenged about their lack of consistency in application of the rod of correction, “I have tried that; it doesn’t work.” Let us think about that response for a moment. Can it really be true that a child correction procedure that is ordered directly in the Scriptures for Godly parents will work in some cases and not in others? The earnest believer would be repelled in horror and say, “Of course not!” Then if the fault does not lie in the Lord or His Word, where does the fault lie if a child is manifesting the rebellion bound in his naturally depraved heart? I believe the answer lies with the father primarily and with parents collectively.
Whenever I have encountered such an excuse on the part of a parent, I immediately begin to ask specific questions about their child correction procedures. In each case I have examined, I have discovered that the parent who claims that they have tried the rod of correction God’s way, in reality hasn’t done so at all. Some have given their child the rod of correction with such a lack of determination and vigor that their blows could not be expected to seriously dampen the enthusiastic rebellion of the child. Other parents have tried the application of the rod at widely divergent intervals of time and have been seriously negligent in the area of consistency. Further questioning always has revealed that the correction was not done with God’s methods in mind at all. In fact, when a child is disciplined in this inconsistent way, he seems to become a worse child of the devil than he was before. In effect, as he is given half-hearted strokes of the rod by a parent who is not fully determined in his heart to break the child’s will for the glory of God, that child in his heart reasons, “I can take this. My parent has not succeeded in breaking my will and I have won.”
To carry out the spirit of this passage, a parent must immediately carry out correction with the rod as soon as practical after the offense has occurred. This is fully in keeping with Ecclesiastes 8:11–”Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.” God clearly states that the further correction is removed from the actual offense in terms of relative time, the less effective that correction will be. What an instructive lesson for our judicial system! How corrective can any method of punishment be when it is weeks, months, and even years after the actual offense? Therefore, a parent should apply the rod as quickly as is possible following the breaking of a rule.
For this reason, a mother who is alone with her children during the day is wise to use her delegated authority from her husband to speedily execute the correction against the erring child rather than wait the minutes or even the hours that it may take for dad to arrive home. When one keeps in mind that the greater the time difference between the offense and the correction the less effect will be gained from the correction, it is obviously wise to follow God’s method and apply the correction immediately after the offense.
Many parents in using the rod of correction on their child do so with an obvious lack of vigor and often stop short of the child’s will being completely broken. Manifestation of this error is illustrated in countless homes as a child gets up from his session of correction still spouting rebellious words and giving willful looks at his discouraged parent. The parent has no one to blame but himself for this problem since he did not completely break the will of the child during the session of correction. A child who is still willing to resist the authority of his parent after having received the rod of correction is still in need of more of that same rod.
Both my wife and I have often remarked that it is good that one of our children was not our firstborn. This particular child who came along later in our family was extremely willful and rebellious toward our authority and would often require sessions of correction lasting from one to two hours in length before the will would finally be broken! Had this child been our first, we may well have been tempted to despair of the grace of God.
Do not be discouraged, dear parent, when it appears that your Godly efforts to chastise your child with the rod of correction meet with total resistance towards your authority. This simply means that you have started on the right course and you must now pursue your objective of a broken will with great vigor until your mission is finally accomplished. This may require a great deal of self-discipline on your part but you can do it, since God requires you to do so.
God’s tool for correction
What is the tool of the condition in this passage? Solomon explains that it is “the rod.” I have spent a great deal of time researching just exactly what a “rod” is and the Scriptural usage thereof and have determined that a “rod” is simply a rod! It is variously defined as a rod, a staff, a scepter, or a wand. In short, a rod is an instrument strong enough to be used in a session of correction so that it will not be broken. It also lends itself to inflicting pain on the posterior of the child, but it is not so constructed as to break bones or tear flesh! In other words, the rod is not a pencil, or a ruler, or a pillow. It is far more severe than any of these objects. Nor is the rod a rubber hose or a length of barbed wire! A rod in most cases is probably a wooden paddle used for spanking the buttock. In my own family, we use a large hardwood paddle for this purpose. If you were to ask any of my children, “Where is the rod of correction in your house?” They would immediately know of what you are speaking and each child who is old enough to do so would be able to take you down to the master bedroom where the “family rod” is kept in a corner.
Since the Lord emphasizes the use of this inanimate object called “the rod” it is not wise for a parent to ordinarily use any other tool for correction.
Although a hand may have to be used in an emergency session of correction, this is not what the Lord had in mind. Your hand cannot do an effective job of correcting since you will inflict about as much pain on your hand as you will on the child’s buttock. Your hand should represent love and affection, not correction. The Lord prefers this inanimate object called the rod.
If a parent obeys … then what?
The promise specified to an obedient parent is “he shall not die.” A casual reader of this passage may be tempted to think Solomon is speaking about the rod of correction in a session of discipline and this session of discipline will cause sufficient crying on the part of the child that it may sound as if he is going to die but he really will not. Although many believe this to be true, this is a false and erroneous interpretation of this passage. If this were true and Solomon is making a reference to physical death in this phrase, “He shall not die,” then a parent could keep his child alive forever by giving him a daily beating! That is ludicrous you may say, and I agree. This passage is not a reference to physical death but is a very clear reference to spiritual life and death.
II. THE SECOND DIRECTIVE: THE PROCEDURE AND PRODUCT OF CORRECTION
A. The procedure of correction
The second directive found in this passage is also in two parts. They are: the procedure and the product of correction. The first part or the procedure of correction is highlighted by “Thou shalt beat him with the rod.” The one who does the beating, in other words, is the one who saves this child in a spiritual sense! Here is a very mysterious promise to a parent in the Scriptures, that consistent, Godly, disciplined correction of the child with the rod of correction will in some mysterious sense be instrumental in that child’s spiritual salvation from sin and death.
To ignore this very clear reference to the child’s salvation being related to his being disciplined is to ignore the very clear teaching of this passage of the Word of God. A parent must recognize and see clearly that Biblically beating his child sensitizes that child not only to the fact of sin but also to its ugliness. In addition, the child will see that the penalty must always be paid when we sin. The beating spoken of in this passage is done often and consistently so that the child recognizes he will always pay a price that he does not want to pay for rebellion against his authority. Such a child who is Biblically trained and corrected will be far more likely to respond to the spiritual concepts of sin and salvation when he reaches the age of understanding. A vital principle for a parent to grasp in this business of child correction is that our children will leave our house to obey their heavenly Father in exactly the same way as they have obeyed their earthly father.
If a child has been accustomed to disobeying his earthly father and was rarely corrected or corrected inconsistently at best, that child will not likely be trained to expect the hand of God to be active in his life in chastening and drawing him to repentance for his personal sin. Therefore, he will not be a very likely candidate for responding to the spiritual concepts of sin and salvation. Obviously, by the grace of God, there are exceptions to this general rule. By the mercy of God, the Lord has often reached down and saved a rebellious youngster who has left the home of parents who never corrected him in a Godly fashion. It must be remembered that he was saved by an all-wise, merciful, and loving heavenly Father who regenerated his heart even though his earthly parents were unfaithful in the area of correction.
To put it another way, the one who does not Biblically beat his child, in a loving and consistent way, in a very real sense predisposes that child for hell and even has a direct part in sending him there! This truth is precisely why the Lord says you “hate your child” if you do not chasten him betimes (Proverbs 13:24). Interestingly, the world believes a parents hates his child if he does use the rod on him!
When your child does wrong and in rebellion breaks rules that you have very clearly laid out, you should not nag him and incessantly scold him or put on your mad voice and use any threatening words. Rather, you should use a rod that has already been designated for that purpose and in Biblical love consistently beat him that his will might be broken and that repentance toward you and toward God be achieved.
Again, these concepts cause horrible thoughts and evoke dramatic reaction in those not accustomed to principles of God. Such folks may say at the top of their lungs, “That is child abuse”! My response to their cries of horror is that their methods of correction in never using the rod and never trying to bring a child to repentance for his personal sin is a horrible, hateful, and unloving method of correction. They are the ones who really are the child abusers, the parents who neglect and leave their child to his own devices. These are the parents who allow their children to express their natural depravity and become increasingly wicked and more sophisticated in their rebellion toward their authority and toward God in their advancing age.
No, God’s method is best, no matter what the wisdom of this world presents as an alternative. For a child to be confronted with his sinnand to be Biblically corrected and to be led to repentance and gaining of forgiveness for his sin is far better than all the talk, discussion, and any other substitute for Godly correction that men can theorize. In my view, any method of child correction that is presented as a substitute for God’s method is child abuse.
But these opponents of God’s methods may object, “What you are suggesting will hurt the child and may even bruise him!” My response would be, “That is correct.” A child may in fact be bruised by a session of difficult correction. In fact, the Lord has already anticipated this objection and has discussed it briefly in the Scriptures. “The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil: so do stripes the inward parts of the belly” (Proverbs 20:30). One may say, “That is talking about a child who has bruised himself in an accident at play.”
No, the latter part of the verse explains that God is giving this passage in the context of physical chastening for correction. God makes the point that if a child is bruised during one of these sessions of correction that a parent should not despair but realize that the blueness of that wound cleanses away the evil heart of rebellion and willful stubbornness that reside in that depraved little body. I must hasten to add that no parent should deliberately seek to bruise his child nor should that be the goal of Biblical correction. I simply must agree with the Lord and declare that if a bruise does occur, God knows about it and will use it to cleanse the guilty heart of that erring child.
Bitter medicine
But the humanist or disobedient parent who does not want to use God’s method may still object and say, “I just cannot bring myself to do such a horrible thing to my child.” Let me ask this question. If your child was dying of a deadly disease and a very bitter, extremely distasteful medicine was discovered that could cure your child of the deadly disease, would you not give him that medicine? In fact, would you not get help to hold the child to even force the medicine down his throat in order that he might be saved? Most thinking menwould most readily admit that they would indeed do so even though the medicine was horribly bitter and distasteful to the child. So it is in this matter of God’s method of child correction. It is very distasteful and painful for the child involved and since this is true it has become bitter and distasteful to disobedient parents as well, but it is absolutely vital for that child’s character training and ultimate spiritual salvation.
When to begin?
When should a parent start using the rod of correction on a child that the Lord has brought into the family? There is no clear and specific answer to this very good question. However, it is my opinion that the correction of children should start as soon as the need for that correction is made manifest. Every discerning parent who has been blessed with a little child in his home realizes that his initial impression of the sweetness and the innocence of the child is in reality an illusion. A child very quickly demonstrates his fallen, depraved nature and reveals himself to be a selfish little beast in manifold ways. As soon as the child begins to express his own self-will (and this occurs early in life) that child needs to receive correction. My wife and I have a general goal of making sure that each of our children has his will broken by the time he reaches the age of one year. To do this, a child must receive correction when he is a small infant. Every parent recognizes that this self-will begins early as he has witnessed his child stiffen his back and boldly demonstrate his rebellion and self-will even though he has been fed, diapered, and cared for in every other physical way.
On what occasions should a child be corrected? Whenever a child directly disobeys authority or shows disrespect and rebellion toward authority, that child should receive correction. Lesser infractions of course would receive lesser forms of correction with the rod being reserved for the more serious infractions.
B. The product of correction
Solomon last turns to the product of Godly correction: “shalt deliver his soul from hell.” The disciplined consistent habit of Godly correction with the rod figuratively snatches that child’s soul from a real hell. The word for hell in this passage is the word “sheol.” Because of the context, we must recognize that Solomon is not only talking about sheol in terms of being the realm of the dead but rather is talking about the lower regions of sheol wherein reside the souls of the wicked dead who have died in their sins and in an unbelieving state. Solomon, in other words, makes a direct tie between Godly correction with the rod and spiritual salvation of the soul of the child.
This connection is made in a very startling illustration from the Old Testament Scriptures.
In 1 Samuel 1:12 we are introduced to an Old Testament believer who was in God’s work. This man’s name was Eli, who was a priest of the living God.
As if to reveal Samuel and Eli in startling contrast to one another, the Spirit of God introduces us to the family of Eli following the wonderful account of Hannah conceiving the child Samuel after being infertile. Hannah must have used the rod of correction on little Samuel since he is later demonstrated in the Scripture as being a totally different kind of child than were the children of Eli. We are told that “the sons of Eli were sons of Belial; they knew not the Lord” (1 Samuel 2:12). These two boys, Hophni and Phineas, were unsaved, unregenerate young men who despite the wickedness of their hearts and their unregenerate natures were made to be priests of the Lord. This unhappy and horrible testimony was an abomination to God. He goes on to say in 1 Samuel 3:13, “For I have told him that I will judge his house forever for the iniquity which he knoweth; because his sons made themselves vile and he restrained them not.” In short, Eli was judged forever by the Lord because he did not restrain the boys from their wickedness and evil-doing even though he knew they were doing wrong and violating God’s law.
Eli would be in close company with many men today, for even though they know their boys or their girls are doing wrong, they refuse to obey God in their own lives. They will not institutes the Godly, disciplined, consistent use of the rod of correction to turn the children around.
Why did not Eli follow through with what he knew he should to restrain his boys? The answer is found in 1 Samuel 2:29, “Wherefore kick ye at my sacrifice or at mine offering, which I have commanded in my habitation; and honorest thy sons above me to make yourselves fat with the chiefest of all the offerings of Israel my people.” Eli did not want to lose the riches, honor, and prestige of the priesthood in order to vindicate God’s honor. He was well satisfied with the tremendous wealth and benefits of the priest’s office and he did not want to “rock the boat.” He lived a very selfish and self-centered life rather than obey the Lord. Because he did not want to jeopardize his or his sons’ positions in the priesthood, he refused to do what he knew he should in restraining their vile, sinful habit patterns. Again, Eli was like many men on the contemporary scene who; because they do not want to “upset the apple cart of their lives,” refuse to restrain their children in order to please God.
The stakes are high
Every father and mother must recognize this all-important fact, that the very soul of their child is at stake in this matter of Godly correction with the rod. The immortal, undying portion of that child is in very real jeopardy if his will is not broken and he is not trained to respond to God’s authority in his life.
A parent must not just correct for present results. If this were true we could understand more clearly why so many parents allow their children to get by uncorrected at present only to reap sad results later on. NO, a parent must correct his children not only for present results but for results twenty years from now and for an eternity!
I am often reminded of a conversation I had with a neighbor of mine who related a very personal incident from his life with regard to the correction of his children. He mentioned to me on one occasion that he thought that he was much too hard on his son and was even accused of being too harsh with the boy by other friends and associates. However, when the boy became an adult man he became active in the Lord’s work and even chose a full-time position in Christian service. On one occasion the young man returned to his father and with tears streaming down his cheeks related to his father how thankful he was that his dad cared enough for him and his spiritual welfare that he absolutely insisted that the child do right. He was also thankful that he backed it up with the consistent and Godly use of the rod of correction even though it was extremely unpleasant and distasteful at the time to his flesh. Your children will also come back and thank you twenty years from now for making them do right if you in fact do so at this moment in their lives.
Any parent who allows the correction of his children to be regulated on the basis of that parent’s feelings and emotions will find that he only disciplines his children on a infrequent basis. This type of correction will be administered only when a parent is extremely irritated or is upset by something rather obvious in the child’s rebellion. Parents cannot afford to base their correction on feelings or on avoiding unpleasantness but must purpose in their hearts to use Godly, consistent, loving correction with the rod even though they don’t feel like it!
What do I do now?
If you are like many parents, you have not been correcting your children God’s way. If after you have read this material and you have allowed the Spirit of God to speak to your heart about your sinful failure with regard to your child’s welfare in this area, you must not simply throw yourself into a new program of child correction. You must first ask God to forgive you for your sin and your failure. Next, ask your child to forgive you for failing him as a parent in not requiring that he be made to do right in all situations. Only after these very important steps are taken may you start with Godly correction and expect your child to respond to you in a positive way.
You must be prepared however, for a very startling reaction to your Godly attempts to do right by your children in this area of correction. If you purpose in your heart to be consistent in this matter, you will soon discover as countless other Godly parents have discovered that you must endure persecution, misunderstanding, and negative reaction from others around you. Some of your friends, perhaps your parents, neighbors, and even other Christians will not agree that you should carry through with this Godly discipline. Be prepared for this reaction, for unless you are in very unusual circumstances, it is most likely to occur.
Parents must use wisdom
Christian parents must be very wise today in how they carry out Godly correction. I would encourage you to be vigorous and consistent in the application of these procedures in the privacy of your home. I cannot completely tell you the grief I have shared with so many parents who have telephoned me and asked me in tears to somehow help their daughter. They have asked to get their daughter back from the welfare authorities or other bureaucrats. You see, many parents who have educated their child with the rod of correction in order to make them do right have found out in shocked disbelief that even the authorities of our local and state governments are against the implementation of this Godly method of training a child. Countless parents could give you vivid testimony of how various authorities have come to their door and have taken away their children because the parents were observed correcting their child with the rod of correction as God ordered them to do. You must correct your child in the privacy of your home so that the fruit of your training will be so indelibly fixed on the child’s heart that you will not have to use the rod of correction in a public setting and expose your family to this very real risk in today’s permissive lawless society.
Another aspect of this is that if you carry through with Godly correction in the privacy of your home your child will not embarrass you in public. Many are the parents who are embarrassed in a church service or in a public setting by their child’s unruly behavior simply because they have not enforced rules of obedience on that child in the home.
Grandparents should also recognize one possible complication in their lives with regard to this issue of child correction. The Scripture states that the crown of older men are children’s children (Proverbs 17:6). That being the case, a grandparent is tempted not to follow through with the rod of correction being used for his grandchild. However a Godly grandparent will recognize the necessity of doing so as well as the Godly reason for doing so. The minority is right.
We must recognize that those people who disagree with what God commands parents to do in this passage are in a definite majority in our society. Perhaps as you read this material, you yourself disagree with what has been expressed. If you do disagree, you may be comforted to know that you are definitely in the majority of opinion. However, you are also very wrong.
Ten spies and all of Israel disagreed with the minority report given by Joshua and Caleb. But God vindicated Joshua and Caleb and punished the majority who chose to disobey (Numbers 13-14).
Even though you may think these methods of correction that God has ordered parents to carry out are bestial, abusive, and unloving, you are the one who is bestial, abusive, and unloving if you don’t obey God in this matter. Moreover, if you do not obey God your child likely will not be saved unless the Lord supernaturally in His mercy does so despite your disobedience.
Today there is at least one European country that has already outlawed what God has clearly commanded in this area of child training. Sweden has made it illegal for a parent to use the rod of correction on his child. If Sweden does carry through and enforce this ungodly and morally unlawful legislation, I can guarantee that the next generation in that land will likely be a nation of perverts. This will be true because of the selfish, rebellious, self-centered, irresponsible young people such sinful and wicked legislation will promote.
No matter what men or governments do or do not do with regard to this issue of child correction, God’s people by God’s grace must follow through and do it simply because God commands it and they must obey to please Him.
Emily Says:

April 17, 2008 at 11:05 pm
Wow, now that’s a comment! OK, first-time commenter here, what are we supposed to do? Just give a full description of our parenting view?
JohannaS Says:

April 17, 2008 at 11:31 pm
“would often require sessions of correction lasting from one to two hours in length before the will would finally be broken!”

That would be where I had to stop reading. Using the Lord’s loving, (emotionally!) painful discipline as a free pass to beat one’s child? That is disgusting. And very scary.
Cynthia Gee Says:

April 18, 2008 at 12:00 am
Yes. And he uses these techniqes at his “school”:
http://formerhephzibahgirls.webs.com/survivorstatements.htm
thatmom Says:

April 18, 2008 at 12:01 am
Emily, welcome as a first time commenter!

Feel free to comment on what was posted or your own views or questions about specific teachers within the church today.

We are glad you are here!
thatmom Says:

April 18, 2008 at 12:03 am
It is interesting because I just came across another article from my own files by this same
author where he is making a “biblical” case for a father being the prophet, priest, and king of his home.
TulipGirl Says:

April 18, 2008 at 12:15 am
Reflecting on where I have been and where I am now in “parenting” and my relationships with my children, I can definitely see a correlation between my beliefs about God and about theology and how that has impacted daily life.

As KatieKind has said and helped me keep in mind my goals in parenting,

QUOTE:
“And lastly, and I say this gently, as the parent of grown kids, knowing *insert parenting guru* is also the parent of grown kids: we have wonderful children–he does, I’m sure–and so do I. But without even knowing his children I can know this about them: they are not perfect. They hurt. They make mistakes. They struggle. They are prideful and overly simplistic at times; and crippled by shame and hesitancy at others. Yes–they are beautiful examples of human beings, his children (I assume), and mine (I know.) But they are not perfect. If they were, they would not be human. If it were possible to raise children to perfection, then God would have sent a parenting method, not Jesus. Our marching orders are not to raise our children by a method to be like *insert parenting guru* children. Our marching orders are to be Christians to and with our children.”
Beatrice Says:

April 18, 2008 at 12:25 am
My heart is just breaking over the material in comment 1. If I truly believed the nature of God was reflected in this, (which I most certainly do not) I would consider killing myself.

My Heavenly Father never wants to break my will just for the sake of breaking it. That would be sadistic. He is not a Person who rejoices in pain for itself.

The poet William Blake has a poem that goes

Can a father see his child
Weep, nor be with sorrow filled?

In this poem, Blake is using the general picture of what we know a human father should be like to argue for the existence of God. But if Christian fathers and mothers don’t sorrow in their children’s sorrow, but view them as alien monsters to beat down and break and subdue to their will … how will an unbeliever get anything but a warped picture of what true repentance and obedience to God is?

I am not a parent, so maybe I shouldn’t be on this thread. But I had to comment, since I feel, from my own perspective of having grown up among Christians and knowing other young people, that how children perceive their parents and that relationship with them interacts with and informs their view of God in many complex ways. I believe many people reveal their outlook on God when they begin to parent, whether they mean to or not. This is why this is SUCH an important thing to talk about.

I look forward to reading the discussion here.
Light Says:

April 18, 2008 at 12:53 am
My wife and I have a general goal of making sure that each of our children has his will broken by the time he reaches the age of one year.

Sick. Truly sick. He is a depraved man.
Alisa Says:

April 18, 2008 at 1:00 am
It’s been my experience that what this type of “spank until you hear the ‘broken’ cry” discipline really produces is a chance for the child to improve their acting skills!!!

When the child doesn’t know what they’ve done wrong or doesn’t believe that they have done anything worthy of a spanking, you are essentially giving them two options; they can either LIE and give a “false” confession (bruising and callousing their conscience) or they can be *honest* and get their backside bruised and calloused because they continue to testify to what they believe to be truthxz. I don’t see how either is a desired outcome. And if a child does know where they erred, why spank???
molleth Says:

April 18, 2008 at 2:16 am
Can you imagine the poor child of his who had a strong will? 1-2 hour sessions regularly? Unbelievable.

I so agree with TG. If perfection is the goal, then God is the worst Parent imaginable. Look—He had disobedient children from the start. Through the Law, certainly a punishment/perform method like the man above recommends, God *still* wasn’t able to get obedient children!

How deeply we show our complete lack of comprehension of the Gospel, when we think a parenting method can achieve obedient Christ-loving children. If that’s all it takes, then there is certainly no need for the Cross of Christ.

Warmly,
Molly
[A former Pearl fan]
Emily Says:

April 18, 2008 at 3:05 am
OK, well… maybe I’m just hesitant because I feel like I could write a book about what I think, not just a comment or two. =) Briefly: My daughter is 16 months-old, so the past year or so I’ve learned a lot and changed my beliefs a lot. I’ve come to a place where my husband and I have taken a definitive stance on not spanking our kids (kinda revolutionary where I’m from and in my crowd, not to mention an unbiblical one according to family members)…beyond that, our entire understanding of how the Gospel informs our parenting has been drastically changed. Not spanking is no longer the issue for us, our understanding of the Gospel makes it so that spanking her seems ludicrous. I’ve done a lot of lurking/reading at http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com and http://www.aolff.com and have learned so much. We now understand that our mission is to SHOW the fruits of the Spirit to our kids, not demand them. To love them with gentleness and grace as God loves us. To refuse to set myself as their adversary in a battle of the wills. I see now that all the sermons we hear about how God saves us apart from our actions and we can never be good enough..those apply to our parenting. We can’t punish the sin out of them, and we shouldn’t try to perfect them apart from the work of Christ. The biggest question I ask myself now is “How would Jesus parent her?” Of course I totally FAIL at living-out that answer every day, but seeing it in that perspective changes everything for me. I think most of modern “Christian” parenting is nothing more than behaviorism mixed with legalism. A little Pavlov’s dog response on top of works righteousness. Anyway, I could go on and on, but I’ll stop. =) I’m trying to slowly work these things-out in writing on my blog…slowly so I won’t lose friends and won’t alienate people when I say that I won’t punish my child. =) Maybe we can break this topic down further for future discussion?
gabbygirl Says:

April 18, 2008 at 4:11 am
well, i just stumbled across this site a second ago! i am a former hephzibah house student (run by the infamous ron williams, who’s tract cynthia posted here). i have been in touch w/ cynthia, as she explained. i was curious as to all the hits my website got today (and i saw that everyone came from truewomanhood, so i had to check it out)!
as was mentioned above, yes ron williams has disabled the hephzibah house website this week, as well as parts of the believer’s baptist church site. i do have all of the pages of those sites saved on my computer, and they are also still viewable if you google “way back machine” and type in http://www.hephzibahhouse.org.

it is truly frightening that ron williams is in his 37th year of running this abusive home…all in the name of christianity!
Corrie Says:

April 18, 2008 at 4:48 am
Funny you should bring up Hephzibah House, Cindy. I am very familiar with this man, ministry and program for “rebellious” girls. I have heard him speak, also. I have been on his mailing list for years. The threat around here is if one of my girls don’t shape up, we will ship them out to the Hephzibah House.

I had to get up and walk about one of the times I heard him speak. It was a small church and I know it was disruptive but my body would not stay in my chair to sit there and listen to what he was teaching. My mind was telling me to sit and stay but my body did not obey. It was a weird memory because it is the only time that has occurred. I had to get away from it because I felt like a ton of bricks was crushing my chest.

There were MANY flippant and derogatory comments about women but take that with a grain of salt since I am a “feminist” without a sense of “humor”.
Cynthia Gee Says:

April 18, 2008 at 5:38 am
“i have been in touch w/ cynthia, as she explained. i was curious as to all the hits my website got today (and i saw that everyone came from truewomanhood, so i had to check it out)!”

Hi Gabby! I wish I could have gotten this comment about H-House onto the list a lot sooner, because I do believe that if enough people hear your story and that of the other women who have lived in that place, it will spread all around the internet and eventually cause a public hue and cry,and Williams will eventually be forced to close his doors and may even be prosecuted, as he certainly should be.

I first learned of Williams’ views on parenting after someone on an e-list which I read published his anti-television tract there.
I can’t explain why, but warning bells went off in my head — something just seemed basically wrong with it, and so I decided to learn more about the man who had written it. I found Williams’ website, and the website for the school, and that awful tract, “The Correction and Salvation of Children”.

I could only imagine the sorts of abuse that must be taking place in a school run by such a man — an man who advocates beating little babies! — and I searched the internet to see if any one had ever investigated the school, but all I could turn up were the email addresses of a couple of reporters who had written some newspaper articles about H-house about three years ago, and who had tried and failed to move the city of Warsaw Indiana to take action. I was able to contact one of them, and she had pretty much given up on trying to help.

I called the Child Protective Services in Indiana, but try as I might, I couldn’t get anyone to listen to me there — they said somethiong to the effect that Indiana really didn’t regulate religious schools — so I pretty much gave up trying to help, too, and resigned myself to praying about the situation, yet, at the risk of sounding cliched, the whole thing remained a burden on my heart.

Then your letter came into my mailbox last month, due to the odd coincidence of one of the former students sharing my name, and, here we all are.

I hope we can work some positive good here, and spread the word of this place all over the internet – if enough of you young women come forward and tell your story, and enough people read it, they will demand action, and the state of Indiana will be pressured into finally doing the right thing and CLOSING THAT PLACE DOWN.

I think that your blog has been having an effect, too, Gabby — both Hephzibah House and Williams’ church have suddenly adopted a very low internet profile.

But driving Williams and Co. underground isn’t enough, because if they can, the Williams family will lay low and continue to run their school very quietly until the hubbub dies down, and the goings-on at the school will continue.
We need to give them LOTS of publicity, and shine a big, bright, public light on them, “that their evil be reproved”, and hopefully the abuse will be stopped once and for all.

“Jhn 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Jhn 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.”
lazydaisydays Says:

April 18, 2008 at 9:05 am
I’m glad this topic has been raised because I had been musing on the whole to spank or not to spank issue recently. Personally I could never use any kind of implement to ‘beat’ my child, I shudder to even think of it.

I have worried though that I am not biblical enough (after reading lots of articles about the rod driving sin out of a child, etc) and that I was endangering my children’s salvation, so I bought Shepherding a Child’s Heart. But I just couldn’t even read more than a few chapters. So I kind of said “Lord if this is your way then You are going to have to give me some kind of Damascus Road type experience”. So far He hasn’t.

I just can’t see how the rod can drive sin from a child, as other commentors have said, otherwise we wouldn’t need the atoning sacrifice of Jesus. He took the beating I and my children deserved and now with the veil torn down we enter into His presence; though we don’t deserve it He welcomes us with open arms.

If I teach my children they require physical punishment for their sin it’s like I’m saying that what Jesus did wasn’t enough.

The Pearls have been recommended to me a few times, I perused their site a very little and it all seemed very nice, full of smiley faces. But I still haven’t read one of their books. I found the following site with quotes from the book and was shocked:

http://www.stoptherod.net/ttuac.html

Have any readers read the Pearl’s book? (Molly you mentioned you used to be a fan, did you read the To Train up a Child book?) Is it really as bad as reported on this website? I found the quotes rather sickening to be honest.

The stuff about Hebzibah House actually made me retch…and all in God’s name!

Daisy
Dulce Domum Says:

April 18, 2008 at 10:05 am
Daisy said:
“I just can’t see how the rod can drive sin from a child, as other commentors have said, otherwise we wouldn’t need the atoning sacrifice of Jesus. He took the beating I and my children deserved and now with the veil torn down we enter into His presence; though we don’t deserve it He welcomes us with open arms.”

I couldn’t agree more. When I read the story on ThatMom’s site about the little boy and the French toast I sighed, and thought “how sad?”. When I read the Hebzibah House stuff and the link that Daisy provided, I feel very , very worried. I see little of the fruits of the spirit in this stuff…where is the gentleness, where is the love, where is the patience, kindness, joy, where on earth is the self control?

Does Pastor Williams not understand the beatitudes? Blessed are the meek, the merciful and the pure of heart. Quite frankly I’m welling up.

Our Creator gave us all we need to be parents, because we have a saviour in our Lord Jesus Christ. We have this remarkable gift and we have the word of God, yet there are Christians out there who see it as there duty to do violence against their children; when Jesus’ message was about love, peace and service. This doesn’t mean that parenting will be easy, sometimes we do well as parents and sometimes we do badly, but we cannot resort to violence to bring about a pure heart or salvation.

Now, I do not smack (spank) my children, but I understand there are parents that do, and of course I respect their choices. However, the kind of discipline that has been highlighted on this thread is systematic and horrific and far more to do with a need for power and domination than “old fashioned” punishment of a naughty child. Is that what patriarchy is? A hierarchical structure established to dominate the small and powerless?
Cindy K Says:

April 18, 2008 at 1:06 pm
Corrie wrote: I am very familiar with this man, ministry and program for “rebellious” girls. I have heard him speak, also. I have been on his mailing list for years… I had to get up and walk about one of the times I heard him speak.

Corrie (and/or knowledgable others),

Did this guy do the homeschooling circuit? I’m just curious how one would find out about this organization? This is nothing like Cookie Rodriguez’ New Life For Girls or Teen Challenge or Freedom Village… I take it that this is more like reform school than it is a retreat type of place where a young girl could flee?
thatmom Says:

April 18, 2008 at 1:20 pm
Cynthia,

You brought up a couple interesting things….

Do you know who supports this man’s ministry? Is there a particular denominational affiliation? Are there any homeschooling leaders who recommend sending a daughter to this place?

As far as women in the patriarchal movement joining us to expose this group, I have my doubts about that. Just recently Stacy had an entry on her blog where a young woman had contacted her for advice. This girl said she had come to agree with Stacy that the biblical way for her would to be at home with her parents and under her father’s protection but that they had insisted she attend college and get a job. Stacy didn’t tell recommend that this girl obey her parents or stay under their authority, but rather, went on talk about parents not understanding the dangers of androgynous white-washed feminism in the culture. Stacy then told about a young girl who was from a “dysfunctional” family, which was not defined but could, I suppose,be defined as one where the girl is in college and not under a father’s protection. The girl in the example had gone to live with a homeschooling family as a mother’s helper and Stacy talked about how often they have seen this and how well it has worked out. The implication was that sometimes parents don’t know what is best for the child and relocation might be a good thing.

While I understand that these are two different ends of the spectrum and I also believe that sometimes we MUST question what parents do, as evidenced in this above article, the message I got from Stacy is that her paradigm of femininity is the ultimate goal and you do whatever it takes. I wonder if Hephzibah House would be included in that.
Cynthia Gee Says:

April 18, 2008 at 1:23 pm
Williams is a Baptist. His church is Believer’s Baptist Church in Warsaw, Indiana, and most websites that promote his tracts and materials are also Baptist sites.
Cynthia Gee Says:

April 18, 2008 at 1:26 pm
Oh, and there’s one other thing I need to mention.
There is also a Hephzibah House in New York City that has nothing to do with Williams’ school. It is a women’s retreat and from what I hear it is a lovely place.
gabbygirl Says:

April 18, 2008 at 1:49 pm
yes, hephzibah house in new york is in no way affiliated…there is also a hephzibah children’s home, and of course hephzibah, georgia, which comes up frequently in google searches.

williams is a “baptist”; although, i would not lump him in w/ others who may call themselves baptist. his brand of “baptist” is most definitely a cult based on twisted scriptures and his desire to have ultimate control. he has control over his large family and the staff at HH. he arranges all the marriages for those belonging to his cult (and living at his compound). his word is more infallible than the bible. i remember being forced to read all of his writings while i was there, and then to write a summary on each of his writings. i was in no way encouraged to “form an opinion” on his writings, or to consult the bible on his writings. i just had to parrot what he had said as if i believed every word. we were, in fact, punished for questioning his teachings or his interpretation of scriptures.
the churches that support him are typically ind. fund. baptist churches; although, he will take money from whomever is willing to give (all the while preaching against those same people)!
his believer’s baptist church does run a school, which consists of the HH girls and his children/grandchildren. most of the girls who are sent to HH are from baptist homes, and come from all across the US and even from canada.
gabbygirl Says:

April 18, 2008 at 1:55 pm
one other note (and thank you all for letting me post/vent here)!!!

williams is very much a proponent of subjugating and opressing women. we were told, and williams’ writings will back this up, that women are “less than” men. we are not made to be able to handle the same rigors and trials in life that men are equipped to handle. in fact, at HH the girls are forbidden to make eye contact with men…if a male approaches one of the girls/women, the girl must avert her eyes to the ground. communication was allowed if initiated by the man. this also included the young teenage male children of ron williams. from what i’ve heard from some other former students, this particular rule got worse after my time, but i’m not sure on how strongly it is enforced today.
Abby Says:

April 18, 2008 at 2:15 pm
I find this thread very interesting. I know some women online who subscribe to the Pearls’ disciplinary beliefs, and when some red flags came up, I brought it up to them, and they were rather defensive. I don’t know that they follow it to a “T” but from what I gathered, they were all much more proud of the Helpmeet book than TTUAC, which still bothered me, considering some of the content in that book as well.

It really scares me that there are homes like this for “rebellious” daughters. I can imagine there being a place for young girls in crisis, but this sounds more like a prison/boot camp situation than someplace for girls to really express their hearts.

About the strong-willed child. I have a rather strong-willed daughter, and I would never want to *break* her will, because I think that is the strongest part of her personality. But it is difficult to deal with. I truly believe the Pearls have a hold on the group of parents who are mostly naive. I’m sure there are others who subscribe to their methods, but parents who are clueless about what they are doing will take anything and run with it. I’m not saying I knew what I was doing, but I think good parental role models, either your parents or other good parents in the church, are FAR better than any book written by a stranger who doesn’t have a clue what my child is really like.
Abby Says:

April 18, 2008 at 2:16 pm
“we are not made to be able to handle the same rigors and trials in life that men are equipped to handle.”

I realized something the other day, and this quote reminded me, if women are not meant to handle the same kinds of trials as men, they why do women have babies and men don’t? Childbirth is a pretty tough trial, don’t you think?
thatmom Says:

April 18, 2008 at 2:43 pm
What I am wondering is if he has any ties to Hyle-Anderson College. It sounds too familiar from what I know of those people. And it is in the same general vicinity.

Right now, I am mostly interested in whether or not there are homeschooling leaders who recommend this place.
earthquake alarm clock and interesting links…a connection? « thatmom Says:

April 18, 2008 at 2:58 pm
[...] also wanted to draw your attention to a new thread on the True Womanhood blog that is discussing the various types of parenting philosophies within [...]
Cynthia Gee Says:

April 18, 2008 at 3:06 pm
“What I am wondering is if he has any ties to Hyle-Anderson College. It sounds too familiar from what I know of those people. And it is in the same general vicinity.”

Well, the present pastor of Believer’s Baptist Church, Don Williams, is a Hyles Anderson alum, according to the church website (which can only be accessed through the Google Cache). You can’t get much more connected than that:
http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:e1OTlXzP3vEJ:churches.kconline.com/believersbaptist/p.PastorandLocation.html+%22Hyles-Anderson+college%22+hephzibah&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us

This is what the page says:

OUR PASTOR

Pastor Don Williams is a graduate of Hyles-Anderson College. He served as assistant pastor of Believers Baptist Church for 11 years and as the senior pastor for 6 years. He is the father of nine children and is actively involved in directing the Printing Ministry of Believers Baptist Church, which supplies Bibles and scripture portions to missionaries around the world.

Call 574-269-2376 or 574-269-2375.

OUR SERVICES

Sunday School ………………………………. 9:30 A.M.

Morning Worship ………………………… 10:45 A.M.

Evening Worship……………………………..6:00 P.M.

Midweek Service (Thursday) …………….7:00 P.M.

Believers Baptist Church presently meets on the Hephzibah House property on Pierceton Road, about 2 blocks west of the corner of 250E and Pierceton Road, Warsaw, Indiana.
Peaches Says:

April 18, 2008 at 3:17 pm
A friend of ours introduced us to the Pearl’s materials (To Train Up a Child and their monthly newsletter) around the year 2000, just before we had our first child. I was in my mid 30′s when I had my first and was not a natural at motherhood. The Pearls seemed to have the magic formula and that was VERY appealing to me. We didn’t adhere to all their teachings (never used switches, never spanked infants)but we got their newsletter for several years and read many of their books.

It seems to me over the years, that the bigger their following got, the more prideful and arrogant Michael Pearl became. For instance, in their October 2001 newsletter, there’s an article on Biblical Chastisement describing how/when to use the rod. Michael states: “If you do not see the wisdom in what I have said, and you reject these concepts, you are not fit to be a parent. I pity your children. They will never experience the freedom of soul and conscience that mine do.”
WHOA. What kind of pressure does that put on parents?

We continued to get their newsletters for the next few years, but sort of took what seemed reasonable and threw out the things that raised red flags. I think it was helpful that we were also reading lots of other views on parenting (Tripp, Dobson, etc.). That kept us from totally falling into any single method.

I honestly think the Pearls love God and that they mean well, but they are not experts in everyone’s lives. It takes a huge amount of arrogance to send a message that implies, “I do it this way and I have a lovely family, therefore you have to do it this way.” The really messed up part is that they tie enough scripture around things and claim that their way is the “biblical” way (sounds like the patriarchy camp) that it’s easy for Christians to get sucked in because they think, “ooooh, this is biblical”.

Pick ANY Christian parenting-marriage-family-relationship author/guru who has written a book and is out doing seminars, and you’ll find they are all saying their way is the biblical way. I’m really tired of it. I have quit reading parenting books altogether. Funny how I had to take a rather winding road to figure out that the bible gives me all the guidance I need, along with my husband and advice from older, wiser parents I personally know and respect.

We finally wrote and asked to be removed from the Pearl’s mailing list a couple of years ago, right after reading Debi’s “Created To Be His Help Meet” book. I won’t even get started on that as it deserves its own thread.
molleth Says:

April 18, 2008 at 4:30 pm
I was never a 100% Pearl devotee, as we didn’t grow out our beards and/or wear long dresses, or go all KJV or anything like that, but I really did love them and their materials and would be so excited when a newsletter came in the mail.

The biggest thing I got out of the Pearls was to be “all there” with your kids, to look them in the eye often, to smile at them, to do things with them. I really needed advice like that…it was GOOD. It helped me be a better mother in so many ways…I learned to connect with my kids, in large part, through the Pearls. But, unfortunately, that came with other teachings.

We began gently training our oldest via Pearl methods around 8 months. By training, I mean teaching her not to touch certain things by using a little flick or swat, etc, and a gentle litle command of “No-no.” She learned quickly. Here’s what is interesting to me, even now: Everyone raved about what an obedient child we had. With my first couple kids, I NEVER heard one world of admonishment or anything else but how amazing our kids were and how everyone wished other parents would follow our example. I’m not joking—this was a regular thing for us (and we were SO proud…it made instant obedience that much more important to us, now that we knew everyone was watching us admiringly).

I started questioning the Pearls methods when my first son came along. My girls were pretty compliant, naturally (though I thought their “goodness” was all from the Pearls training, of course, then). My first son, though was a ball of energy, big time. When he became a toddler, it was like a whirlwind lived in our home. I remember stopping the car five times on the way to town once, to spank him for taking off his carseat belt.

I was so frustrated…consistant spanking was supposed to work, right? But here was this (bored, highly kinesthetic) kid, rebelling. The 3-5th time I stopped, I remember thinking something like, “This can’t be good for him…but I have to do this, or he’ll grow up to be a God-hating rebel…” Urgh. I was so brainwashed. It makes me sick to think about this, actually, or to write it, but I really want to try and explain.

Looking back, he was about 20-22 months old then. My goodness, he wasn’t rebelling, he was bored, and he was using his hands! I’d just been trained to think of young children as “little rebels,” trained to think of their perfectly normal activities as if they were purposely trying to disobey.

After the whole carseat thing, where spanking clearly did not work, I started mellowing out my demands for perfection at that point, though I wish it would have been a lot faster than it was. It would be the next son who would complete the job. My 4th child, one that the pastor above would have beaten for hours on end, has an incredibly strong will…and just one swat would make him literally freak out, like his heart was broken. He wasn’t manipulating me, he was literally horrified that I would hit him, EVER. My mother’s instinct knew that spanking would hurt this kid far more than it would ever help him. Plus, I didn’t want to break anyone’s will, just teach it to bend. A strong will can be a gift from God—why would I want it broken?

Here’s what is also interesting: when I began questioning the Pearls teachings and not reacting to every “rebellion” (that means anytime obedience is not instant), *then* I started having people question my parenting!

In other words, most folks seem to LIKE to be around children who demand nothing of them, who will obey instantly, on command, every time. *ahem* Children who do not require relating with.

Long story short, it took a loooooooong time for me to see where the Pearls were wrong. The biggest reason I believed them is because I believed that the Proverbs were meant to be taken literally. I honestly thought it was a sin not to do so. I thought spanking wasn’t optional, but was commanded.

So it was through reading things like “Heartfelt Discipline” by Clarkson, who was a conservative evangelical like I was, yet goes DEEPLY through the Scriptures and shows how the rod in Proverbs is a metaphor, not a literal command…all that time I’d scoffed at people like that, but he gave a careful probing analysis and showed me how I was completely wrong.

Or this article, by my good friend Ann, about her experience using the Pearls material, http://aholyexperience.com/2006/04/perfectionism.html

Or books like VanVonderan’s, “Families Where Grace is in Place” (WOWWOWOWOWOWOW—if you only get one book, make it this one), where I learned that perfection is not the goal and never will be the goal, and that operating under a performance mentality will NEVER be good for my children (or my marriage, for that matter), as it is a Fallen method of relating.

Honestly? I have no problem with spanking, when it’s seen as one of many tools in the parenting toolbox. It’s best with younger kids, never with olders, and only when nothing else is getting through, on an issue that is really important. But it’s not the norm in our house anymore. It’s very rare.

I have learned that there are SO MANY WAYS to help shepherd children into obedience. Just as there are SO MANY WAYS the Spirit shepherds us into obedience. Sometimes He does punish us. But it is so very rarely. It took me a while to learn this, and I still am…I was so trained to think, “spank,” that learning to parent differently has taken a commitment to learning to think in a whole new way.

I’m sure most of you can testify of an experience like mine with Jesus: He is gentle, good, kind, long-suffering, funny, and warm to me, as He leads me into the person He’s fashioning me. Why did I think I should ever parent in any other “method” but His?
LizJ Says:

April 18, 2008 at 5:25 pm
Another worthwhile topic! My husband and I are Ezzo survivors (I was active on the ParentsPlace board for several years).

Not only did we, for at least a time, buy into the Ezzos, but our first instructors were also into Gothard and another family/parenting guru, whose name escapes me now. They told us a story that is similar in concept to the article from Williams, about a young man whose father had to chastise and chastise for a long amount of time. When the young man had grown up, he came back to his father and thanked him for not quitting “too early” during those chastisement sessions.

This first set of Ezzo instructors also introduced us to the cottage industry of “chastisement tools” (these particular ones made from old tires). They showed us a sample in class and directed us to a web site. We were supposed to keep it on the hush-hush, though, as nasty government types
might intrude if they found out, and take away these people’s liberty to run this sort of business.

The whole rod thing failed miserably with our older daughter, who we later discovered had Bipolar Disorder. The frightening thing that we discovered later is that the discipline sessions were very likely driving her into what is called “Mixed State” where a child shows symptoms of both mania and depression at the same time.

To this day, there are some people at our church that cling to the Ezzo stuff.
TheNormalMiddle Says:

April 18, 2008 at 5:33 pm
I spent too long reading that HH survivors website and I am shocked and appalled that this place is even real, much less still in operation?

How on earth have they not been investigated and shut down?
lazydaisydays Says:

April 18, 2008 at 5:51 pm
Thanks Molly for explaining your experience with the Pearl’s teaching.

“The biggest thing I got out of the Pearls was to be “all there” with your kids, to look them in the eye often, to smile at them, to do things with them. I really needed advice like that…it was GOOD. It helped me be a better mother in so many ways…I learned to connect with my kids, in large part, through the Pearls.”

Yes, that aspect of their teaching which I found when I perused their website a little appealed to me. However, reading the quotes on the other website (which I linked to in my previous comment #17) I was shocked, the level and ferocity of the punishment advocated I find rather hard to take.

Your experience with your 4th child is exactly how my eldest daughter reacted when I even suggested I would spank her for being naughty (after reading Shepherding a Child’s Heart and feeling I ought to implement its advice). She screamed in terror, genuine terror, curled up in a ball recoiling from me with big wide eyes – I wasn’t approaching her in anger I just told her that I was going to spank her. But I couldn’t do it, I just couldn’t. Of course then, I felt a failure as if I must be letting God down because I was (according to Ted Tripp’s argument) going against scripture and therefore going against God.

Neither of my girls is rebellious in a big way, just the odd disagreement about tidying rooms, etc. My eldest in particular loves Jesus and endlessly talks about Him.

I read a review of Tripp’s Shepherding a Child’s heart, which said that his advice to hug a child with great expressions of love straight after a spanking, could cause the child associate punishment with love and for the child to need punishment in order to feel love – thus causing confusion relationships with the opposite sex later in life. Another review on Amazon, from someone who says they received regular corporal punishment as a child, said he started self harming later in life whenever he had done something wrong as he felt he needed to be physically punished in order to be ‘set-free’ from his sin. These are of course anecdotal, but still worrying.

The best book I have read on parenting is Grace Based Parenting by Tim Kimmel. I actually learned so much about grace for myself from that book not just parenting advice. It was great. I haven’t heard of the VanVonderan book, I will check that out, thanks Molly.

Sorry this comment is so long, just one last thought. I remember reading that the root of discipline is disciple and that God doesn’t directly punish us because Jesus took the punishment we deserved, but He does discipline us though difficult times, hardships, etc, refining and testing us so we are discipled into obedience.

This is a very interesting discussion; I’m finding it helpful in refining my own slightly confused thoughts on the issue.

God bless you ladies, I’m so glad I found this forum!

Daisy

p.s. TheNormalMiddle – my thoughts exactly!
lazydaisydays Says:

April 18, 2008 at 5:53 pm
..sorry I should have written – I remember the root of the word discipline is disciple…
Cynthia Gee Says:

April 18, 2008 at 6:31 pm
“I spent too long reading that HH survivors website and I am shocked and appalled that this place is even real, much less still in operation? How on earth have they not been investigated and shut down?”

They haven’t been shut down because the state of Indiana doesn’t really regulate religious- run institutions, because of separation of church and state.
Back when I was first investigating HHouse, I ran across this blog, whose owner was a colleague of some reporters who attempted an exposee of the school many years ago (warning, there is some strong language on this site).
Because of the way that the state of Indiana does things,(and presumably because of William’s standing in the community) that exposee came to nothing in the end.
Maybe it’s time for another exposee, and another investigation — 2008 is, after all, an election year.
Lin Says:

April 18, 2008 at 6:40 pm
Has anyone noticed that there really is not that much in scripture specifically about raising kids? We have the basic scriptures we refer to in teaching them (Deut) and not sparing the rod (which was NOT a hard stick), some proverbs and them honoring their parents but where do these gurus get all these specifics about every little thing?

It is their interpretation. They are reading into scripture. But telling folks to study the Word prayerfully and be led by the Holy Spirit in all things does not sell books or conferences.
gabbygirl Says:

April 18, 2008 at 7:28 pm
to answer the question about hyles anderson…yes, ron william’s son is a graduate of hyles. although, i think they are now more closely affiliated w/ fairhaven baptist church/college.

as far as home schooling groups referring girls to HH…i think it is churches and pastors who are the primary referrers. there seem to be multiple girls from the same church and school that are sent to HH.
none of the william’s family home school their children, as they all attend their church run school (which uses the ACE curriculum). not sure if that answered your question.
thatmom Says:

April 18, 2008 at 7:50 pm
Gabby, do you know if there was ever any sexual abuse of the girls while they were at HH?

I am curious about the churches. We have a Hyle-Anderson church in our town and years ago one of the youth pastors who was here at the time sexually molested several girls. It was a huge scandal and he left the area. I later found out that this was not all that unusual for young men who had been trained at Hyles. I find their views of women absolutely appalling, too.

I know that many homeschooling parents have certain expectations of their children and there are other places that take “wayward” children, such as Bill Gothard’s detention center in Indianapolis. Perhaps they are there because of the state laws, too.
Theresea Says:

April 18, 2008 at 8:54 pm
thatmom,
# 13 ‘s comments are rather telling. John 3:21 ” But he who does the truth comes to the light,that his deeds may be clearly seen,that they have been done in God.” Wow 37 years?…. now with blogs maybe someone can set up a web site for former students to speak out. Either that or someone can infiltrate and document what is happening. Wonder why he disabled the site?
Cally Tyrol Says:

April 18, 2008 at 9:08 pm
Perhaps the biggest problem I have with parenting models like the Pearls/Ezzo/Tripp, is that they teach that spanking is the means God has appointed to change the heart of the child. Its essentially a means of grace. The Pearls teach that spanking actually removes the guilt of sin from a child. They can’t be held responsible for their sins until the mysterious age of accountability, so we have to spank the guilt of sin out of them.

This is an AMAZING post on the subject:

http://lutherama.blogspot.com/2007/09/rod-is-means-of-grace.html

Its not even about spanking in general (although I’m opposed to it in almost every instance)- its about what these people teach is the actual effect of that spanking. Its very troubling.
molleth Says:

April 19, 2008 at 3:34 am
THAT was a major underlying concept that I inadvertantly swallowed (maybe in my childhood? or in the punishment-based books that I read as a new mom? or a combo of both?), Cally, and that article you link to really hits the nail on the head.

If the rod is a means of grace—if the rod can *truly* cleanse the soul of sin—then what mankind needed was Law, Law, and more Law.

The OT Law is essentially what many “Christian” parenting books espouse today. It goes something like: If you do well, we’ll be happy with you. If you don’t do well, we’ll hurt/punish you until you do.

The rod will change a child’s heart? Then who needs the indwelling Spirit? The rod will cleanse a child’s sin? Then who needs the Cross of Christ? The rod will cause a child to be righteous? Then who needs Jesus at all?

It’s interesting to note that the methods suggested by the Pearls as “simple child-training methods” are methods that most animal trainers say are sub-standard—methods that will do more damage than harm. The animal learns that unless he is perfect, he can expect to be hit. This is not a healthy environment for an animal to perform his best in. How much more so is this true for human children?
Cindy K Says:

April 19, 2008 at 4:17 am
Has anyone read “You Can’t Make Me, But I Can Be Persuaded” by Cynthia Ulrich Tobias of Focus on the Family fame?

My dear friend with six girls was having trouble with her youngest, and had little successs with spanking. She was exasperated and had experienced similar frustrations with an older daughter… I found a copy of Tobias’ book that was new at the time (as I enjoyed her writings about the “Concrete Random” learner that is tough and will call your bluff). It worked wonders with the younger daughter who is very “CR.”

Anyone have any opinions about Tobias and her writing?
Cynthia Gee Says:

April 19, 2008 at 4:18 am
The new website for William’s church:

http://churches.kconline.com/believersbaptist/Welcome.html
http://churches.kconline.com/believersbaptist/Pastor_Service_Times.html
molleth Says:

April 19, 2008 at 5:31 am
When I was all gung-ho about instant obedience, I was rather against Tobias. I mean, she was essentially saying that we should “give in” to the rebellion of our children. (Remember, instant obedience is the goal of discipline, and even hesitation is rebellion, to say nothing of a strong willed child!). Persuade a child? Not hardly. That would be to foster a spirit of rebellion.

Now, of course, I look at her words in a much different light. I think she speaks with a lot of wisdom. A strong will can be an AWESOME character trait! The last thing we want to do is break it (or to think it’s sinful, in and of itself). Her book is a great way to learn how to work *with* a kid, not against him/her. Good book recommendation, Cindy K! I’m glad you brought it up.

Btw, I did always think it was weird that it was on Focus, right next to Dobson’s stuff on strong-willed kids (which seemed a LOT different than what Tobias was saying…his was more a focus on *making* them than on helping them, it seemed to me, unless I’m remembering wrong…)?
Rebecca Says:

April 19, 2008 at 10:14 am
Just a question: If this Hephzibah House is run by a man who claims to be baptist, would he fall under the Baptist convention/leadership/structure (I’m not sure what they call it)? And if so, why have they not done anything about him?
Cindy K Says:

April 19, 2008 at 11:41 am
Molly wrote: Btw, I did always think it was weird that it was on Focus, right next to Dobson’s stuff on strong-willed kids (which seemed a LOT different than what Tobias was saying…his was more a focus on *making* them than on helping them, it seemed to me, unless I’m remembering wrong…)?

I think that they were both talking about different things under the same heading. What I hear Tobias saying is that the parent who takes a child who is more like a piece of fine china and puts them through the paces that one would expect of stainless steel is a fool. You don’t use a teaspoon to dig a trench, just like a surgeon doesn’t use an axe in place of a scalpel or a laser. Or as my mother used to say, “You shouldn’t throw a child into the deep end of the pool if they cannot swim.”

I know in patient teaching, the nurse is required to ensure that a patient can perform a task. The first and perhaps most critical step is determining what you have to work with before you ever can start the nuts and bolts of the task. If a family member must be taught to change a loved ones dressing, if that family member doesn’t have the fine motor control to remove the old bandage and safely do the wound care, you aren’t going to be able to meet the objective. And then the nurse must have the wisdom to know whether that person is likely to comply with the basic minimum requirements. In hispanic populations, they are really weird about “outie” navels, and it is their tradition to take a coin and bind against a newborn’s belly to prevent this from happening. If the nurse knows that this is going to happen, what does the nurse do? They had better teach that family to sterilize the coin and keep it clean! (Why a nurse is not really worth their salt until they’ve has some experience in the trenches first.) So I see Tobias saying “be wise about what you’re working with and consider the unique strengths and weaknesses of your kids. Abandon the cookie cutter.)

Dobson, I think, takes a different approach to the same subject, looking at the less specific aspects of the general topic of the strong willed. (Tobias addressed a specific aspect of the greater problem.) Dobson spoke of things in more general terms. But from my vantage, the message was similar: be informed, realistic and be wise. I didn’t see anything that was saying that said that we should excuse behavior or cater to kids or coddle them. I saw it as a call for parents to responsibly respond to problems with wisdom.

?? But then, I haven’t lived this stuff as a parent, either. Like every other human piece of advice: it probably has good stuff that you can use, but it wont have all the answers for people. There’s always an element of error and every human effort will have some error in it. And there’s never a “one size fits all” tool either. The only one that we do have is the Word. The rest is flawed by one degree or another.
Peaches Says:

April 19, 2008 at 12:21 pm
Rebecca asked: “Just a question: If this Hephzibah House is run by a man who claims to be baptist, would he fall under the Baptist convention/leadership/structure (I’m not sure what they call it)? And if so, why have they not done anything about him?”

There is no one, single Baptist organization that has authority to govern church leaders. While some Baptist denominations are quite organized, like the Souther Baptists, there are many, many churches that call themselves “Independent Baptist”. Essentially, they answer to no one.
Cynthia Gee Says:

April 19, 2008 at 1:16 pm
“While some Baptist denominations are quite organized, like the Souther Baptists, there are many, many churches that call themselves “Independent Baptist”. Essentially, they answer to no one.”

And that is a recipe for disaster.
The proliferation of independent churches who are doctrinally answerable to no one is partially why abusive situations like Hephzibah House and the aberrant doctrines which produces them have been allowed to flourish, rather than being nipped in the bud.
Independent churches are NOT scriptural — even shepherds need a shepherd to keep them in line and ensure orthodoxy — that’s why the early Christians had a hierarchy with deacons, elders, and bishops, who were answerable to the Apostles themselves.
Many of the worst aberrations of modern Christianity have grown out of the independent church movement (or out of pastors like Sproul Jr., Phillips, and MacDonald who flouted denominational authority to form their own churches); this has been especially true in the southern United States, where the Civil war resulted in divisions within several denominations, and thus gave rise to a do-it-yourself, individualistic attitude toward religion. (dare I say — if at first you can’t secede, try, try again?…. running and ducking!)
thatmom Says:

April 19, 2008 at 1:29 pm
Rebecca, since Williams is associated with Hyles-Anderson, I don’t believe there is probably any church authority above him as the pastor. These are an association of independent Baptist churches. Rev. Jack Hyles, who was the founder of the school, had a notorious history of marital infidelity. Even after it was discovered that he had a “secret” door between his office and his secretary’s office that they frequently used for their affair, some people turned a blind eye. I remember, about 15 years ago, reading an online report where several independent Baptist pastors in the northern Illinois area attempted to hold this man accountable and, as I recall, not much came from it.

There is a Hyles-Anderson founded church in my town and they do not join with any other church in town nor will they participate in anything that is para-church. They believe in “separation” and that includes staying away from other Christians they deem worldly. Groups like this remain free from an scrutiny or accountability.

Truth be known, I see it no differently than presbyterian groups who maintain a high commitment, on paper, to their confessions or book of church order, but who still function with a good old boys club mentality. You can see abuses within those circles and go through all the complaint-filing exercises and still have someone look you in the eye and say “yes, we realize that this pastor is in error or has issues or is a zombie loony weirdo, but what can we do?” I have seen pastors even just get their hands slapped for adultery in one of these types of churches. The bottom line is that your church leadership will only be as good as the character the leader has.
thatmom Says:

April 19, 2008 at 1:30 pm
“if at first you can’t secede, try, try again?”

Brilliant!
thatmom Says:

April 19, 2008 at 1:34 pm
My thinking about addressing this horrible situation at the Hephzibah House is that it should be dealt with on the demand side rather than the supply side. The word needs to get out what they do there but also the word needs to get out that MANY Christians do not agree with these sorts of methods of discipline. As long as mainstream parents think and are taught that Williams/Pearls/Ezzos/Fugates abusive methods are ok, they will continue and there will be a place for Williams and his “home for girls.”
thatmom Says:

April 19, 2008 at 1:39 pm
Richard Fugate’s books basically teach the same thing that Williams says in that article…you beat until the child repents. Many Christian parents believe this is the biblical method. Fugates books are still available at homeschooling conventions, right alongside the Ezzos and Pearls.

An interesting story….I had a well-meaning mom give me the To Train Up book after y 5th child. Actually, she gave it to me twice within a year. I know she thought we were totally failing as parents….I already had 4 well-behaved children. Then along came a child who has ended up having learning disabilities. She didn’t understand what we were going through and once she even picked up my child in the church nursery, while my daughter was in there with him, and she spanked him. It wasn’t until God gave her her own “special” child about 8 years later that she came back and told me that she now understood what we had gone through. She was a big Ezzo advocate and loved the Pearls.
TulipGirl Says:

April 19, 2008 at 3:08 pm
“Or as my mother used to say, “You shouldn’t throw a child into the deep end of the pool if they cannot swim.”

Errr. . . unless you’re Michael Pearl. *cough, cough*
gabbygirl Says:

April 19, 2008 at 4:43 pm
wow, so many great comments and questions. yes, i am familiar w/ the scandals associated w/ hyles anderson. also, william’s church is “independent”, so he is not associated w/ GARBC or any other organization. i do not know of any allegations of sexual abuse from past students at HH…having said that, i do want to say that i would believe any girl who alleged it though. that is just based on all the other atrocities that I KNOW first hand that were carried out there. i personally had a very disturbing experience on my second day at HH. i was taken into a closet area and i was forced to undergo a vaginal exam. this was performed by a man that i did not know…he was not introduced to me…and i never saw him again. HH was very anti conventional medicine and doctors, so i have no idea who this person was. i have found 2 names of doctors who had supposedly been afiiliated w/ HH over the years, and i have turned those 2 names along with a detailed account of that incident in to the inspector general of health and human services.
i also know that many girls were forced to pull their skirts up when they received their beatings at the hands of ron williams and staff.
i think the comment about supply and demand was perfect!!! that is what i am hoping in part to accomplish w/ my website…get the word out…if he doesn’t have the girls, he can’t continue the abuse. as far as the HH website, several of us girls sent a demand for ron to remove any testimonies or statements that had been written by certain former students. these were statements praising HH, but they had been written 15 years ago, and were also coerced and we felt the need to denounce those statements. 3 days after our letter he took the site down. not sure if it is connected or not.
http://www.formerhephzibahgirls.webs.com
Beatrice Says:

April 19, 2008 at 5:56 pm
comments 48-50 intruige me very much. Scary. Is this independent church thing very widespread in anyone’s opinion? Because I feel like it might be happening more and more in American Christianity. I would hazard a guess that these types of churches are very, very conservative to the extreme. Maybe in our postmodern era things like this happen because people want to make they have a grip on truth in this era, so they start their own little thing, but they don’t realise they’re going about it from a paradigm postmodernism would have no beef with. Now I dunno about all this, I’m just thinking out. The whole matter is of intense interest to me.
Beatrice Says:

April 19, 2008 at 5:56 pm
“I’m just thinking out loud” I meant.
Beatrice Says:

April 19, 2008 at 5:59 pm
gabbygirl, the girls were forced to wear skirts as opposed to pants in the first place, right? And then forced to pull them up on occasion?

The stories about HH are so sad. I am so sad.
molleth Says:

April 19, 2008 at 7:09 pm
I know. It was horrifying to read through the survivor stories and to know that the place is STILL in existance! URGH.

On churches without accountability, while I have little gushing sentiment to share about independant fundamentalist Baptist groups, I want to remind everyone that resoundly-hierarchal churches have allowed their fair share of abuse. Anyone remember the Inquisition, or Calvin’s Geneva? There is no easy answer for preventing human sin, and there’s no formula to prevent abuse (albeit, some systems can make certain kinds of abuse less likely).

That said, when it comes to independant fundamental Baptist groups, they thrive on the fact that they are the only ones holding fast to God’s word. So they’re not going to be all that receptive to other opinions from “carnal Christians,” and they’re already trained to expect your outrage and other sorts of “persecution.” So while we could use a lot of energy by attempting to change things by going that direction, but it would probably be a big waste of time and effort.

The thing to do with Hepzibah House is not so much to go to the church, but to get the society around the church riled up. What goes on in Hepzibah House is *illegal.* Get some social workers fired up about it. (It’s very sad that this is another classic case of the church having to go to the world to get justice dispensed on behalf of the weak).
molleth Says:

April 19, 2008 at 7:10 pm
I hate the fact that I never pause to edit, and that I think faster than I type, resulting in numerous grammatical errors.
Just wanted to say that.
*grins and rolls eyes*
Sandy Says:

April 19, 2008 at 10:27 pm
Karen,
“Richard Fugate’s books basically teach the same thing that Williams says in that article…you beat until the child repents. Many Christian parents believe this is the biblical method.”

I was one who used these books. What a horrible confession. There finally came a point when I realized that, instead of causing my sons to grow in godliness, I was pushing them towards rebellion. I sat them down, explained how I had been wrong and asked their forgiveness. Their response was that they knew I was doing what I thought best because I loved them. I think I cried for three solid days. God did bless me with some wonderful sons!

Anyway, yes his books sound very much like Williams. I remember in To Train up a Child, Fugate actually says to remember that if you bruise a child, he won’t die and you will save him from hell. (I’m cringing even now as I wonder how I could ever have followed teachings like that – not that I ever actually bruised my children. Actually, come to think of it, I felt guilty because I couldn’t bring myself to take it that far and so thought I was failing as a mother) Thank God He is the God of grace and growth!

Cindy,
Thank you for sharing your story. What a powerful story of grace it is!
Lin Says:

April 20, 2008 at 3:36 am
“I would hazard a guess that these types of churches are very, very conservative to the extreme. Maybe in our postmodern era things like this happen because people want to make they have a grip on truth in this era, so they start their own little thing, but they don’t realise they’re going about it from a paradigm postmodernism would have no beef with.”

Beatrice, this fascinates me and I have been thinking about this for a long time now. I have come to my own inadequate conclusion that it is all about the sin of power and control disguised as a biblical model (which does not exist in scripture)

Instead of being redeemed from the consequences of Gen 3…man has IMPLEMENTED Gen 3 throughout history and institutionalized it in the NC church.

Molleth mentioned Calvin’s Geneva and it is a great example of it. They did not just persecute Catholics, they persecuted those who only disagreed on the concept of a state church and baby baptism! That is about power and control. It was about forcing people to conform and lording it over them.

It is really about who is the boss on earth. And that thinking is just worldly and has nothing to do with what is taught in the NC.
Lin Says:

April 20, 2008 at 3:48 am
“Now, of course, I look at her words in a much different light. I think she speaks with a lot of wisdom. A strong will can be an AWESOME character trait! The last thing we want to do is break it (or to think it’s sinful, in and of itself).”

Ok, I could use some advice on this one. I have a very strong willed 7 yr old daughter who is really a delight but she wants to negotiate EVERYTHING. I mean she could make a good living in the souks. Where does she get this? I mean it just comes out rapid quick with the bartering. And it does not stop until she has winkled some victory out of me.

There are some things that cannot be negotiated and I am having a hard time with this. If I allow negotiation, then she expects it on everything. If I never allow negotiation then she can never make decisions.

For some reason, this is her thing: Negotiating and bartering. It happens with chores, daily schedules, homework, walking the dog, food choices…you name it. (I will eat this broccoli if you will let me have 3 gummi bears. Ok, two gummi bears… and on it goes)

This can be a great trait but it is making me batty. Otherwise she is a delight, well mannered and quite outgoing. Seasoned moms… Any suggestions?
TulipGirl Says:

April 20, 2008 at 4:18 am
Well, Lin, I think “negotiating” is pretty normal for all kids to try–so I’ve dealt with it, too–though maybe not as much as you!

One thing that my kids didn’t like (but worked) was when using the phrase “Asked and answered.” (I got this from another mom, but can’t remember who right now.)

Using your example above,
“I will eat this broccoli if you will let me have 3 gummi bears.”
“No, you need to eat your broccoli.”
“Ok, two gummy bears.”
“Asked and answered.”
“One?”
“Asked and answered.”

It’s just the reminder that we already have a stated boundary that (in this situation) is not going to be flexible. That said, sometimes we can be flexible, sometimes we can negotiate, and still hold onto our mommy-authority.

Oh, and like I said, my kids’ response to “Asked and answered” was varied. So for us it morphed into, “What was my answer?” and that worked for us. I think the “Asked and answered,” though, can help establish the boundary more strongly when that is needed. Personally, when I’m working through a specific “issue” with a child, I find it helps me to try out a couple of phrases and have a practiced response for when the situation arises. (On the other hand, so much of parenting is relying upon the Holy Spirit in the moment–so I’m not advocating any formulaic approach. . .)
shilohmm Says:

April 20, 2008 at 4:55 am
I wanted to second molleth’s recommendation of Jeff VanVonderen’s Families Where Grace is in Place. I also found his Tired of Trying to Measure Up very helpful – it was worth the price just for the “unwritten rules” lists, but that was by no means all the good I got out of it.

Perhaps the biggest problem I have with parenting models like the Pearls/Ezzo/Tripp, is that they teach that spanking is the means God has appointed to change the heart of the child. Its essentially a means of grace.

Yep. My parents were spankers, and growing up I was bound and determined I’d never spank, but for whatever reason, every Christian parenting book I picked up for years insisted spanking was Biblical and necessary. *sigh* So I did for a while, hating it, then I decided it simply couldn’t be right and quit, with great trepidation because everything I “knew” said I was failing my children – then I ran across the observation on how spankers connect spanking and grace and the relief was enormous.

Dobson, I think, takes a different approach to the same subject, looking at the less specific aspects of the general topic of the strong willed.

I have big problems with Dobson because he seems to think kids come in only two flavors – strong-willed or compliant. My parents saw me as strong willed (as did my friends when I was older), but I was devastated by spankings; they did not buy into the “spank them into submission” or spank me for long times or any of that but I still had nightmares about spankings until I was in my forties and I never could quite get how spanking was not hitting.

Now I don’t even try to find the dividing line. :p There’s a book written in response to Dobson’s method on kids like myself (and some of mine), kids where Dobson’s methods badly backfire, called, I believe, Strong Willed Child or Dreamer, that I still found rather harsh but that recognizes that some children who are not “compliant” by Dobson’s definition respond very poorly to the power plays that work with a strong-willed child.

This can be a great trait but it is making me batty. Otherwise she is a delight, well mannered and quite outgoing. Seasoned moms… Any suggestions?

My middle daughter is like this. She is also the most articulate and social of all the kids, and I think the negotiating thing is such a delight to her because she is essentially practicing life-skills that will serve her well. Now she’s older it’s not such an important thing, I think because it isn’t a skill she’s practicing in quite the same way, although she does still try to work out things she really wants. I drew really firm lines around some things – if I say, “This is a non-negotiable”, then trying to wheel and deal carries consequences (usually a minor fine, since she is wasting my time and my time is valuable). But mostly I let her ramble on to see what she’ll come up with and just consider it a form of learning drill.

I also had already established stuff like the fact that I do NOT buy the kids anything at the store (although I do give them an allowance), so there’s no point to asking because all I’ll reply is, “You have your own money if you really want it” and the like. Since she’s the fourth child I already had a fair number of lines drawn where all her wheeling and dealing was going to get her nowhere and she figured those limits out pretty quick. There can be a fine line between negotiation and nagging; I do think it’s necessary for your own sanity to have some subjects or areas non-negotiable. Sometimes I say outright something is nonnegotiable (in which case there can be a consequence for pushing the issue), sometimes I pull the broken record routine and just keep giving them the answer they don’t want to hear. :p
Cindy K Says:

April 20, 2008 at 9:50 am
Shilohmm:

I too love Van Vonderan’s books. “Tired of Trying to Measure Up” (I think) has an excellent description in it of the cyclical patterns in abusive relationships that is very much the same as what takes place in Pia Melody’s (and others’) concept of Love Avoidance/Love Addiction that I recognize and ascribe to patriarchy. There are cycles of escalating conflict, culminating in confrontation and then the conflict ebbs and people come back in a passive fashion… then the inevitable conflict builds and the cycle perpetuates, on and on.

You know, specifically about Dobson, I have lost respect for him and really don’t like him much anymore since he published that book describing good and evil and why bad things happen. I thought he sounded like a secular humanist. (Book from the early to mid ’90s). And it’s been a zillion years since I read him — well, probably about 15, given the release of his aforementioned book. I read all those books, getting prepared and ready as I could for my children that never came and those that never saw the light of daylight, tucked deep in my heart.

But I take the writings of men always with a grain of salt for the most part. (I think! I aspire to such anyway… But I could be kidding myself!)
Lin Says:

April 20, 2008 at 5:58 pm
tulip girl, I love this: ‘asked and answered’. It is so much better than saying NO louder and louder. ) Or, don’t ask again or you will be in big trouble!

this is much more collegial in authority but shows definite boundaries.

I am starting with this today. Thanks!
Cynthia Gee Says:

April 20, 2008 at 6:01 pm
“The thing to do with Hepzibah House is not so much to go to the church, but to get the society around the church riled up. What goes on in Hepzibah House is *illegal.* Get some social workers fired up about it. (It’s very sad that this is another classic case of the church having to go to the world to get justice dispensed on behalf of the weak).”

That’s why I brought the H House story here to this blog. When I wrote to Indiana Family Services about it, the didn’t really listen. Maybe if ALL of us wrote to them, and got outher people to write to them, they would start to listen better.
Giving this LOTS of publicity, and making Warsaw Indiana famous as the town that allows stuff like this to happen within its jurisdiction might help, too …
…. especially if we tell the mayor and the city council of Warsaw all about the GREAT publicity their town is recieving.
Lin Says:

April 20, 2008 at 6:05 pm
“I also had already established stuff like the fact that I do NOT buy the kids anything at the store (although I do give them an allowance), so there’s no point to asking because all I’ll reply is, “You have your own money if you really want it” and the like.”

Oh, I can relate to this.Perhaps it is because I had children older but I got to the point I could not stand to shop because of whining kids everywhere begging for everything they saw. The parents were so wishy washy about it, too. I could see the kids wearing them down and they would buy something to shut them up.

So, I made sure I dealt with this early on and she never asks me to buy her things at the store. What is really neat, though, is that sometimes I will buy her a little something and she is so thrilled and just gushes at the counter saying, oh, thank you mom. The clerks are always amazed as they rarely see this in kids. What is neat about this is that she really appreciates it because it does not happen every time so that makes it very special.

But she haggles over everything else!
HeatherMN Says:

April 20, 2008 at 6:18 pm
RE: strong willed child

(((Lin))) Let it never be said parenting is easy! I’ll jump in with my thoughts as I have four children. #3 (boy-8yo) is so unbelievably strong willed at times it’s hard for me to fathom. I am so *not* stubborn, it is nearly impossible for me to relate to him at times. Family members and friends are amazed, also, at his strong willed nature, so I know it’s not just me.

I have prayed for him (or more for wisdom in how to raise him) so much over this past winter. I noticed a big change in him when God changed *my* heart in certain areas.

What I’ve decided to do with him is have very few rules, but be very consistent about the ones I do have. This is, in general, how I’ve been parenting for a few years, but with him it’s even more so. Guess what else? I’ve decided to ask very little of him. Years ago, I would have cringed at a parent making that comment, but I can’t believe the difference it’s made in our relationship! Praise God. Don’t get me wrong ~ he still has daily chores like his siblings, and a set bedtime, etc. But I’ve stopped nagging him and Wow! I was amazed at the damage my nagging was doing.

Using your broccoli example, I would decide ahead of time how important it was he eat his broccoli. Does he really *have* to eat it? Could he have another veggie or fruit instead? Is he allowed to ‘pass’ on one food per meal? etc. If I would decide that it is very important he eat it, I would decide how much (3 bites or whatever is on his plate, etc.) and then have that same policy every.single.time. I serve broccoli. Does this make sense?

I think consistency is the key. Grace to you as you parent your daughter.

HeatherMN
thatmom Says:

April 20, 2008 at 8:09 pm
RE: the going to the store issue.

When our children were young, we adopted the concept of the looking day vs the buying day. I would tell them that I was happy for them to come along with me to the store, but they needed to know that is would be only a looking day for them, which meant that they knew ahead of time that even if they asked, they would not be buying something. That way, when they actually had a buying day, it was something special and they had that to look forward to and didn’t have to feel frustrated that they could never make a purchase. Dad was the one who always let them have special things when he went along with him, usually during his Saturday errands. We have done the same things with the grandkids, too.

Also, the same principle works at garage sales. They were usually so happy to be able to make a purchase that it didn’t matter that it was for 10 cents and was a used toy. They just loved the fact that they were participating.
thatmom Says:

April 20, 2008 at 8:11 pm
Heather, the advice about choosing battles is a really important one. I have seen parents decide that taking a last bite or eating all the broccoli was their Waterloo. How foolish they looked and sounded and they were setting themselves up for future dumb battles. My advice is to save your big guns for the big battles that will inevitably come. If you do this, I think you will weather those upcoming issues with more grace and credibility with your kids.
gabbygirl Says:

April 21, 2008 at 2:54 am
cynthia, if you are interested in contacting any authorities in indiana, i have a list 10 feet long of all the people i have talked to. i’ve contacted or been contacted by everyone from the police to the mayor to the governor. even though i haven’t gotten the answers i had hoped for, i’m still trying. so maybe getting enough over voices together is the thing to do. let me know if you are interested in names and contact info. thanks!!!
Rae Says:

April 21, 2008 at 2:56 am
How do you find people that share your child-raising ways and values? How do you help you and your kids not think of yourselves as being weird for the path you’ve chosen re: hsing, proms, dances, no sleepovers, no youth groups, etc.? Sometimes, just trusting in our God-directed steps is not enough to sustain me…
Rae Says:

April 21, 2008 at 2:57 am
I meant “no proms, no dances.”
mary Says:

April 21, 2008 at 3:50 am
So what are your reasons for no proms, dances, sleepovers or youth groups? And how old are your children?
Lin Says:

April 21, 2008 at 5:11 am
Heather, great points. I am not that strict about food because like others here, I want to pick my battles. Would I rather her have a strong character and love for the Lord or eat broccoli? ) I don’t think it is either or but if we get so focused on those things, we can miss the bigger picture, too.

I can understand about the strong willed little guy. It is so funny to see my friends have the first 2 or so be so easy and then WHAM, the super strong willed child. They all ask…why couldn’t that one have been first? )
molleth Says:

April 21, 2008 at 7:02 am
Gabbygirl,

Will you share that list of names with us, so that we can contact people in power and see if we can’t get that place investigated and/or some press on it?

I know I’d love to use my blog to drum up some help, and I bet other commenters who have blogs would too.

Please give us a list of “what to do.” By that I mean, tell me/us who needs contacted (government people and press alike), their email addresses or phone numbers, as well as giving us a basic “jist” of what you think needs to be said to those people. Please also provide blog/website links, etc, that you think would be good for our readers to check out, etc.

If you can spell it out for us, then I’ll *happily* spread the word and do whatever else I can to get that *hellish* place shut down, and I bet others will too.
RichardD Says:

April 21, 2008 at 10:02 am
I have a very strong willed 7 yr old daughter who is really a delight but she wants to negotiate EVERYTHING.

Lin – my son is like this too. Ever since he was old enough to converse, my wife and I have said that he was destined to be a lawyer.

And the “asked and answered” thing is a great idea, but does not work with our son. I tried that a few times. The worst response I got from that tactic was just recently when he bit down hard on his hand in frustration saying through his clenched teeth that he was going to draw blood (this was another negotiation gambit, to which I responded-”okay”). When he pulled his teeth away from his hand, sure enough, there was blood there. He bit through the flesh on his hand in frustration that I was not allowing him to negotiate the amount of food he would eat. He will be 13 next month and we have episodes like this about a dozen or more times a day.

There is not a one-size-fits-all type of parenting. And those who fall for the concept tend to look down their noses at parents of other children who are a bit more of a handful.

I think we are looking at it all wrong. Those who have really tough-to-parent children are the exceptionally good parents. God has given them the tough kids because the normal parents could not handle these kids. Those parents with naturally compliant kids are the truly bad parents. And God has given them the children with no personalities because they would be steamrollered by the “negotiators.”
Theresea Says:

April 21, 2008 at 10:42 am
There is a web site devoted to sex abuses within baptist churches it is
http://www.stopbaptistpredators.org

Maybe that can give some insight.

If there are any wrong doings at HH some kind of health code violation might be a route to take for investigation otherwise maybe there are strong ‘shepherding type’influences and teaching in doctrine which should not be affirmed. Stopping financial support would be the other route to take. Examining their financial records would be another.
keebler Says:

April 21, 2008 at 12:23 pm
I have many different types of children. Though I don’t have any who are exceptionally strong-willed, they all have different personalities, and different ways of relating to the world. Also, their ways change some as they grow older. They also have all discovered different ways of “pushing buttons.”

When I am asked why we have six children, I end up saying something like- “God gave us that many because we have a lot of rough edges to be rubbed. Each child rubs us in a different way. They highlight our own character flaws that need to be worked on.”

If we had had only the first, we would have been great parents – at least for the first two years, because he was easy at that point. And then came the rest of them. Of course, I can’t predict what the first one would have been like if he had been the only, but adding more to the family changed the dynamics of parenting, as well.

I suppose it is easy to see now when the children range from 6-19, but the pride of youth saw how wonderfully we were raising our children when they were young and we tended to ignore God’s grace. It was only when the children began to grow older that we saw how little we knew and how much of an ongoing learning process we have in parenting. It also has helped to watch other parents struggle with one particular child out of their family. We are forced to conclude that A plus B does not always equal C and that even perfectly applied formulas do not guaranteed perfect children. Imagine that!
Lin Says:

April 21, 2008 at 12:31 pm
Rich, you are too funny. Well, it is amazing to what lengths they will go to try and manipulate. And it is about winning.

If you guys read Franklin Graham’s biography you would know he presented some of the same challenges to Ruth. He once locked her out of his room and barred the door. So she climbed onto the roof of the house and went in through his window. Another time, she made him ride to the drive in resturant in the trunk of the car. When it was time to order, she raised the trunk and took his order.

She would be in jail today. )
Rae Says:

April 21, 2008 at 12:53 pm
Mary,

>> So what are your reasons for no proms, dances, sleepovers or youth groups? And how old are your children?

Sometimes, I’m not sure why. Maybe we are trying to figure out how to transition from the very impressionable years of young childhood to the next phase. I don’t know. I think it has something to do with our children’s personalities, too. “Impressionable years” can last a while for some!

I know that we personally did not date when in high school, and I’m glad now for that. I went to the prom, and it was not a big deal, looking back on it. I did it because everyone else was. How good a reason was that?! IMO, “dating” should be reserved for when marriage is on the horizon.

I did sleep-overs; dh never did. I’m just leary of them, and I hear many stories about bad sleepovers. Thankfully, I was kept safe.

Youth group for my dh was filled with wild deacons’ kids that were not corraled. I had a pretty good experience with spiritual leaders. Our current church has some young youth group leaders with little life experience of raising teens.

My daughter has a wonderful Sunday School teacher: mature, older children, Godly.

There are many differences in family lifestyles when hsing is chosen. I would like to center on the similarities, but run out of them. Maybe someone here could help me? The school seems to control the family’s schedule. It is not this way for our family. Even in our hsing method, school does not control our family.

It seems like the controlling, legalistic churches have a corner on community. Why is this so?
Cynthia Gee Says:

April 21, 2008 at 1:11 pm
“cynthia, if you are interested in contacting any authorities in indiana, i have a list 10 feet long of all the people i have talked to. i’ve contacted or been contacted by everyone from the police to the mayor to the governor. even though i haven’t gotten the answers i had hoped for, i’m still trying. so maybe getting enough over voices together is the thing to do. let me know if you are interested in names and contact info. thanks!!!”

I think that that is a really good idea, Gabby, and I think that you should make that list public, here and also on the front page of your blog; you might also want to tell the reporters at the local newspaper and at any COLLEGE OR UNIVERSITY NEWSPAPERS, or even take out a newspaper ad yourself in order to tell your story and publish the list.

Another thing would be to find out which of the government officials whom you have contacted is running for office again this year, and contact the OPPOSITION party — if you tell the folks who are running AGAINST them your story, and point out that the people who are currently in office are not interested in remedying the situation, that ought to definitely get you some help.
Cynthia Gee Says:

April 21, 2008 at 1:14 pm
Another thing……
IMO, you also ought to make a much bigger deal of the fact that many of the food donations given to HHouse never made it to the girls there, but were eaten by the Williams family.
They advertise for donations; if the donations are not given to the residents, this is FRAUD, and it’s CRIMINAL. I was especially interested to note that they had you girls get out of bed in the middle of the night to process fresh road-kill venision, which was never served on the tables at the school. Perhaps the deer were donated by individuals, but in many states the state itself donates roadkill to non-profit organizations like homeless shelters and youth homes. If THAT’S where the deer came from, and it was not used for the students, the Williams family have violated quite a number of Fish and Game laws, as well as committed fraud.

One other thing… that venison WAS road kill, wasn’t it? If it had bullet holes in it, let me know. Night-hunting for deer is ILLEGAL everywhere that I know of, and if the Williams family was in the habit of poaching, or was accepting donations of poached venison, the state of Indiana will probably want to know all about it — even in states where the governor could care less about teenage girls, they still tend to care a great deal care about the welfare of their deer population.
Cynthia Gee Says:

April 21, 2008 at 1:29 pm
“How do you help you and your kids not think of yourselves as being weird for the path you’ve chosen re: hsing, proms, dances, no sleepovers, no youth groups, etc.? Sometimes, just trusting in our God-directed steps is not enough to sustain me…”

Rae, the answer is to pray about it, read your Bible, and to seek guidance from a good, orthodox-believing pastor who can instruct you in what the Bible and historical Christianity teaches about such matters; usually, that means going to a church in a mainstream denomination.

The world is full of all kinds of false teachers spreading all kinds of unbiblical nonsense, and there is a ditch on both sides of the road — you hear a lot about liberal Evangelical wolves, but there are just as many conservative wolves out there, and they tend to proliferate in the independent churches where there is no church hierarchy or oversight.

Raising children is not easy – for that matter, just plain living is not easy!– and trying to “go it alone” without a good commonsense church to help you is a formidable task, indeed.
gabbygirl Says:

April 21, 2008 at 4:05 pm
as far as i can remember, yes the deer was from road kill. the william’s family had some sort of connection w/ the sheriff dept. even way back then. i “think” a few of their boys were junior deputies or something. they used to drill it into our heads that if we tried to run away from there, the police would bring us right back. i know i always believed that, and the consequences looming overhead were enough to keep us there.

the idea about contacting the opposition of any officials seeking re election is brilliant! i am going to post that idea on my website…i am pulling up all my contact info and will post it here in just a few minutes!
molleth Says:

April 21, 2008 at 4:14 pm
“How do you help you and your kids not think of yourselves as being weird for the path you’ve chosen re: hsing, proms, dances, no sleepovers, no youth groups, etc.? Sometimes, just trusting in our God-directed steps is not enough to sustain me…”

Just to be a voice from a different angle (which seems to be my lot in life–harhar), we homeschool, but have no problem with sleepovers, youth groups, sports teams, whatever.

Don’t get me wrong–we don’t let our children run all over town without us, and they also know about their “private zone” and that no one is to touch them there (no matter what they say), ETC, etc, etc. But we’re not into this whole “shelter” thing where everyone but the family is suspect.

I want my kids to have a good healthy sense of the world around them, and I want them to have it while they’re at home with us. I’ve seen too many homeschooled kids completely clueless (and very *fearful*/suspect) of the rest of the world at 18, and I think it doesn’t do them any favors.
molleth Says:

April 21, 2008 at 4:14 pm
Btw,
YAY! Thanks, gabbygirl! Can’t wait to see it. I’ll be sure to put it up on my blog today or tomorrow.
Cynthia Gee Says:

April 21, 2008 at 4:24 pm
“the william’s family had some sort of connection w/ the sheriff dept. even way back then. i “think” a few of their boys were junior deputies or something.”

If Indiana is anything like PA, the sheriff’s department is answerable to the State Fish and Game Dept. when it comes to the allocation of roadkilled deer.
No wonder the local sheriff didn’t want to help you — they might be afraid that they could be implicated in violations themselves if all this starts to come out!

“the idea about contacting the opposition
of any officials seeking re election is brilliant! i am going to post that idea on my website…i am pulling up all my contact info and will post it here in just a few minutes!”

Really, you couldn’t ask for better timing to blow the whistle on Hephzibah House — what with media attention focused on that Texas polygamist cult, and that awful business last month over in England with that children’s home on the Isle of Jersey where kids were tortured, killed, and found buried on the premises after the place closed, the public is very aware of child abuse issues right now.
Cynthia Gee Says:

April 21, 2008 at 4:32 pm
Gabby, just a thought, but, did any of the girls at HHouse ever just “disappear” or go missing?
gabbygirl Says:

April 21, 2008 at 4:39 pm
okay, here is the letter that i sent to everyone…

I am writing to inform you of a facility that is operating in your community. Hephzibah House is located in Warsaw, Indiana, and is advertised as a home for troubled teen girls. I myself was a “student” at this facility quite a few years ago. I have recently begun my own investigation into Hephzibah House based solely on my memories and experiences while there. Unfortunately, this has been a long and painful journey. Along the way I have found several other girls who were also students at Hephzibah House. We are girls with varied backgrounds and from places all across the United States. I am also in contact with a family member of a girl who is currently being held at Hephzibah House. I do use the word “held” literally, as students at Hephzibah House are basically prisoners and there against their will.

I will just take a moment to outline a few of the major concerns that I have with Hephzibah House, and why I feel it is such a threat to have a place like this operating in your community. This home is run by Ronald Williams and his family, and also volunteer staff. There are no licensed therapists or medical personnel on staff. The girls inside the home have no contact with the outside world, and have no way of contacting anyone for help should they feel threatened or in danger. There are no telephones inside the facility, so even in the event of an emergency, there would be no way to call for help, be it medical or otherwise. Also, outgoing and incoming letters are from the girls’ parents or pastor only, and each of these letters is scrutinized and only sent or received if it passes the inspection. In the outgoing letter, no girl is allowed to express a desire to go home, nor is she allowed in any way to complain about anything going on inside the home. Parents may only see their children at 3 approved visits during a 15 month period. These visits are in the presence of staff and under no circumstances will the girl be allowed to leave the facility during the visit, or be alone with her parents at this time. Every day the girls are subjected to isolation and humiliation. There are many instances of physical abuse as well, and by this I do mean that girls receive beatings at the hand of the Williams family and staff. There are many disturbing facts that I could present to you, but I am urging you to please take a moment and read the attached article. This article, “The correction and Salvation of Children” by Ronald Williams will clearly outline the stand that Hephzibah House takes on disciplining children. The article very blatantly states the necessity of literally beating children, starting in infancy, and also of the parent’s responsibility to break the will of children in order to assure their good behavior. I apologize for the length of the article; however, I have underscored several sections to make it easier to read. This article is very disturbing, and should raise concern that a facility like this is operating in your community.

Thank you so much for your time and attention to this very important matter. Please feel free to contact me with any questions or concerns that you may have.

i gave all my contact info and attached a copy of the article “correction & salvation of children” which cynthia has posted on this site already.
gabbygirl Says:

April 21, 2008 at 4:42 pm
yes…there was a girl who tried to run away during the night, after she’d been there just a few days. it was a huge hoopla in the middle of the night…we never saw her again! her name was “cindy gee” (whis is how i happened to find cynthia)! i do remember the day after cindy tried to run…one of the william’s boys had a bunch of scratches on his face… he said he got them when he was chasing and restraining cindy…wish i could find that girl, but i don’t even know where she was from.
gabbygirl Says:

April 21, 2008 at 4:50 pm
A FEW of the people I have contacted:

Randy Bowman and Paul Schmitt
Winona Lake Police Department
http://www.winonalake.net (574) 267-8622
***they are currently our contact people, but i don’t have much confidence in either of these two men.***

http://www.guidestar.org
copies of HH tax returns
(i found the last 5 years of HH returns on this site)!!! you can see the millions they make each year in donations (which is separate from the monies that the parents send monthly).

Mayor Ernie Wiggins (Warsaw, Indiana)
ewiggins@kconline.com (his direct e mail)
(574) 372-9595 (you will initially get his assistant Michelle)

State Rep. David Wolkins
Statehouse: (800) 382-9841 In District: (574) 269-2639
***He is from Winona Lake, Indiana***

Governor Mitch Daniels
Phone: 317-232-4567
http://www.in.gov/apps/afss/afss2
the web address is the contact page if you want to send the governor an e mail

HH has 2 addresses that they use, so it is kind of confusing b/c all the officials seem to want to pass the buck and say HH is not in their jurisdiction.
508 school street…winona lake, indiana
is the addy that they advertise with; however, this is a residence that they own and it is the office for HH.

2277 E. Pierceton Rd. Warsaw, Indiana
is the acutal address of where the girls are held. these 2 addresses are literally 5 minutes apart, but they are in different towns. the church is on the same property as where the girls are kept.
Cynthia Gee Says:

April 21, 2008 at 4:57 pm
There has to be some record of her somewhere. If she’s still missing and no record can be found, that could be one starting point for an investigation, possibly for homicide.

Frankly, given the conditions you describe, I’m surprised there weren’t at least a couple of fatalities over the years. Severe beatings can result in hypovolemic shock, which is often fatal; this is especially likely to happen in persons who are malnourished or dehydrated.
gabbygirl Says:

April 21, 2008 at 5:14 pm
it was the same when girls would leave before their time was up. we would start our day as usual, and then somehow or another during the day a girl would just disappear. all of her belongings would be gone, no goodbyes, and then we were forbidden from discussing this person. if we did have to say something that would involve a girl who was no longer there, we could only refer to her as “past student”…it was very strange.
Cynthia Gee Says:

April 21, 2008 at 5:21 pm
So if a student went home, ran away, got seriously injured, or even died, no one there would ever be the wiser?
Cynthia Gee Says:

April 21, 2008 at 5:28 pm
There was also reference made of girls who were kept from leaving even after they had turned 18. That’s also illegal. Were they told that they could not leave, or intimidated into remaining “voluntarily”, or what?
gabbygirl Says:

April 21, 2008 at 7:12 pm
as far as girls remaining after turning 18, i was one of those girls. i told ron williams that i wanted to leave, and he told me that i was not ready. (that was their pat answer for everything…we weren’t ready and would fall into sin or drugs or death or jail, etc. if we left w/o their blessings).
apparently my mother called there just before my 18th b-day to arrange to pick me up early. i was put on the phone w/ her and i told her that i wasn’t ready to come home. looking back i can’t imagine why i would have said such a thing…other than that i was brainwashed and afraid. any phone conversations were monitored w/ a staff member sitting 2 feet away listening in on another phone. we were warned repeatedly about what we could or could not say on the phone. i must have been very afraid
Peaches Says:

April 22, 2008 at 1:20 am
I haven’t seen many comments from people who have used Bill Gothard’s methods. I have some in-laws who are really into Gothard, but since we live in different states, I don’t have much interaction with them. My husband questioned some of the Gothard stuff one time and the reaction we got from them was not pretty. Since then, we’ve just let it go. If any of you have been to his training seminars, I’d love to hear your take on it.

On a side note, for those of you (like me) who have stepped away from the Pearl’s teachings, I found a good website last winter that has an excellent commentary on Debi Pearl’s book. It’s quite long, but if you don’t have time to read it all, you can just go to the link that says “conclusion” and read the short version.
http://www.createdtobehelpmeet.blogspot.com/
Corrie Says:

April 22, 2008 at 1:29 am
Hi Peaches,

Both Karen and I were in the ATI program. It usually is not “pretty” whenever someone questions the stuff taught in the Gothard program. Usually the reaction is something like this: “You are bitter.” “You have low standards.” “You are divorced.” “You have cut off child-bearing.” “You have rock music in your life.” “How dare you question what Bill Gothard teaches! Bill Gothard has done more in his one little pinkie than you have done in your entire life!”

The program has many layers and you really have to be IN it to understand all the various teachings.

It is my opinion that Gothard’s teachings are more balanced and “normal” and much less extreme than the Vision Forum, Jonathan Lindvall, Debi Pearl, etc teachings.

That doesn’t mean I recommend the program because there are a lot of things I just cannot agree with but when you compare the ATI program with what is out there now, Gothard seems mainstream.
Corrie Says:

April 22, 2008 at 1:33 am
Gabbygirl,

Thank you for being so courageous and shining the light of day on the Heph. House and the teachings and practices of Ron Williams. I am well aware of his ministry and I have been on his mailing list for almost a decade. One time I heard him speak at a church and I grabbed up every piece of literature I could in order to learn about his teachings. I was shocked and saddened by his attitude towards women and discipline. He is so little-known and this is the first time I have seen online discussion of his ministry.

We cannot underestimate the immense pressure and mind control that goes on in these groups in order to achieve control over the subjects of such ministries.
Corrie Says:

April 22, 2008 at 1:37 am
“Don’t get me wrong–we don’t let our children run all over town without us, and they also know about their “private zone” and that no one is to touch them there (no matter what they say), ETC, etc, etc. But we’re not into this whole “shelter” thing where everyone but the family is suspect.

I want my kids to have a good healthy sense of the world around them, and I want them to have it while they’re at home with us. I’ve seen too many homeschooled kids completely clueless (and very *fearful*/suspect) of the rest of the world at 18, and I think it doesn’t do them any favors.”

Molleth,

Excellent.
RichardD Says:

April 22, 2008 at 1:41 am
Gabbygirl – I am so saddened by what happened to you. I visited your site and read the statements by the girls and by the parents and it sickened me. My father was a guest speaker at what I thought was a Baptist summer camp in Winona Lake Indiana when I was a young child. I wonder now if it was the beginnings of HH.

My fear in all of this, within the context of the other instances of abuse in the religious community recently, is that our society will turn against religion in a coercive and totalitarian way–making it illegal to be involved in certain religions. We Christians must stand up against this abuse (spiritual, physical, psychological, etc.) or else our government will have to and then it will be too late for us.
Corrie Says:

April 22, 2008 at 1:42 am
“I suppose it is easy to see now when the children range from 6-19, but the pride of youth saw how wonderfully we were raising our children when they were young and we tended to ignore God’s grace. It was only when the children began to grow older that we saw how little we knew and how much of an ongoing learning process we have in parenting. It also has helped to watch other parents struggle with one particular child out of their family. We are forced to conclude that A plus B does not always equal C and that even perfectly applied formulas do not guaranteed perfect children. Imagine that!”

Keebler,

Exactly!

I am struck with just how much I do NOT know and do NOT understand about parenting now that so many of my children are older. They are all so different and I am learning that I must approach them in different ways.

I am learning that children are people, too.
Lynn Says:

April 22, 2008 at 1:59 am
It is my opinion that Gothard’s teachings are more balanced and “normal” and much less extreme than the Vision Forum, Jonathan Lindvall, Debi Pearl, etc teachings.

Yes. Except for the fact that he teaches that Cabbage Patch dolls are demonized.

And don’t forget what he teaches about adopted children. If you sign up for ATI they demand that you tell them if any of your children are adopted, because they are worried that you might not have properly dealt with the generational curse issue, I guess.

And that women who like horseback riding have a problem with rebellion.

And that it is a “total insult” to be called uncircumcised in Scripture, and that the parents should help their sons follow in the way Jesus went by circumcising their sons. Besides, there are tremendous “health benefits” to circumcision, which is probably why God commanded Abraham to start practicing it.

And that couples need to follow the Mosaic sexual rules, and the Mosaic rules for childbearing. The “health benefits” thing again.

And that Jonathan Lindvall got his start on his authoritarian teaching from Gothard’s teachings on authority.

And that a wife should not stop her husband from abusively beating their child, but should offer to take the beating for the child.

And that you can go to a shopping mall and learn to observe people to really “see” them and then you design character exercises for the problems you “discern” from watching people from your car.

And that you merit God’s grace for sanctification . . . oops, he changed that teaching under fire, I guess. Scratch that. But he does teach that grace is God giving us the desire and power to do His will.

And that Tamar was partially at fault for the fact that she was raped.

And that Abigail was a “woman who tore down her house with her own hands” by “taking matters into her own hands.” Abigail was wicked by saving all the servants of Nabal, and Nabal, from being killed by David.

Remember Gothard also compared a wife who works outside the home to the harolt of Proverbs (whose “feet never stay at home”).

Corrie, after remembering all of this, I would place Gothard’s teachings on the same level of that of the Pearls, Jonathan Lindvall, some of Gary Ezzo’s teachings, and Vision Forum.

It seems they all borrow from one another, and although there are a a few minor differences between them, they are all in the same boat, as far as I’m concerned.
TulipGirl Says:

April 22, 2008 at 3:03 am
I want to suggest that this article provides good food for thought about the Gospel in parenting:
http://parentingfreedom.com/discipline/

Carol has long been a friend, encourager, and sounding board as I have thought through the implications of what I believe about God and what that means as I mother my children.
Cynthia Gee Says:

April 22, 2008 at 3:18 am
Nearly every one of these Gothardite ideas runs directly against Scripture
For instance, he rails against Abigail, yet the Bible says that she as a woman of good understanding who was married to a churlish and evil man; also, the Bible says, “Blessed are the peacemakers.”

Gothard also says, ” that you can go to a shopping mall and learn to observe people to really “see” them and then you design character exercises for the problems you “discern” from watching people from your car.”; yet the Bible says, “the LORD seeth] not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.”

I could go on….
thatmom Says:

April 22, 2008 at 11:24 am
Peaches,

We were part of Bill Gothard’s ATI program for a number of years…8, I think. There is just a lot I could say but the further away from it I am, the weirder it seems to me. I think that the newer trends in homeschooling are mutated Bill Gothard teachings. I also think that they are a lot scarier because it is much easier for a family to slip into the patriocentric lifestyle than it was/is to get into the ATI program. While ATI required conference attendance, weekly records of personal disciplines like Scripture memory and Bible reading times, etc., now all you have to do is listen to Doug Phillips on CD, go to a regular homeschooling conference, or order from his catalog. There are some groups who also put these burdens on parents and I am certain that there is a lot of pressure in NCFIC churches to conform to certain things, but it isn’a quite as intrusive as the ATI stuff.

Does anyone here have any excperience with one of Henry Reyenga’s home discipleship churches? They have a pattern that you are supposed to follow that includes directives right down to certain things you have to do several times a day. The whole church memorizes the same passage of Scripture, there is the expectation that your family is memorizing Scripture off the list for the month and is reading the same passage as the rest of the church. On Sunday morning, the pastor asks questions about that passage so, of course, if you want your family to not look dumb, you will function within their parameters. They also expect that the husband and wife will have a time alone of Bible study every day, you will also have individual Bible study time alone every day and you must be training your children to do the same, so you have to oversee their personal times as well. And you are expected to host people in your home to practice hospitality, both with those in your congregation and with those families that might be interested in your church. Henry Reyenga wrote a book about home discipleship that refers to the Amway model as being what Jesus did. Seriously,
thatmom Says:

April 22, 2008 at 11:25 am
TG, Carol’s website is so inspirational and informative. I remember when I first discovered it….I was blown away. Thanks for mentioning it.
Lin Says:

April 22, 2008 at 1:47 pm
I thought Gothard never married or had kids?
corriejo Says:

April 22, 2008 at 1:51 pm
Cynthia Gee,

Yes! Great points about the problems in Gothard’s teachings. Abigail is a prime example of how he (and many others like him) are trying to make the Bible fit their preconceived notions about how they think women should behave.

Another one is Tamar. Gothard tells us that she should have seen the signs and should have taken precautions with her brother. He said something about Amnon’s eyes and how Tamar would have known by his eyes that he wanted to rape her. (!!!!!!!!!!?????????) Oh, he conveniently forgets that Tamar was obeying her father in bringing her brother some food on his sickbed. Tamar was doing what the patriocentrists think daughters should be doing! Also, Gothard asserts that Tamar didn’t scream for help since no one tried to stop the rape. He conveniently forgets that her brother plotted this rape with his henchmen who stood guard at the door.

Really, if these people were consistent they would be greatly cautioning women that sexual abuse occurs many times in the home by the very people who should be protecting them. This is a PROVEN and KNOWN fact. Tamar, the Concubine, Lot’s daughters are all good examples of this.

But, somehow they take these examples of women in hard situations and blame the victim and not the perps all the while ignoring the plain teaching of scripture.
Cynthia Gee Says:

April 22, 2008 at 3:05 pm
“But, somehow they take these examples of women in hard situations and blame the victim and not the perps all the while ignoring the plain teaching of scripture.”

No big surprise there — after all, Gothard also believes that the Holy Spirit speaks to him directly through “Rhemas”, that wheat bread is spiritually superior to white bread, and that Cabbage Patch dolls cause demonic possession.

I don’t know why people even pay any attention to guys like Gothard — if they went around wearing tin-foil hats and claiming to be Napoleon, everyone would write them off as nuts and think no more about it, but whenever the nuttiness involves religion, people are for some reason inclined to take them seriously.

Weird.
Lynn Says:

April 22, 2008 at 4:13 pm
#111. Yes, Lin, Gothard is unmarried, in his seventies, and has never had kids.
thatmom Says:

April 22, 2008 at 4:14 pm
FYI, here is a link to a new article you all might find interesting. I would love to know what you all think of these “labels.”

Christian voyeurism, Christian exhibitionism
http://thatmom.wordpress.com/2008/04/22/christian-voyeurism-christian-exhibitionism/
thatmom Says:

April 22, 2008 at 4:17 pm
Cynthia, my husband and I were discussing this very thing last night and what drew us to ATIA. Basically, he was offering a place of fellowship and validation 23 years ago when there was little of either for homeschoolers. And, honestly, we were willing to overlook some of the weird to get both.

I am unsure why someone would put up with it today, however, when those things are readily available for homeschoolers.
Beatrice Says:

April 22, 2008 at 4:30 pm
Cabbage Patch Dolls are demonised? ROTFLOL!!! Ha!

sigh, that really got to me for some reason.

About Gothard and circumcision – has this guy not read Galatians!?!?!
Lynn Says:

April 22, 2008 at 4:44 pm
#117. Yes, Beatrice, he has, because he has things to say about Galatians. But he says nothing of the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15, AFAIK. Acts 15 is the passage where the church said that the Gentile converts were NOT to be circumcised and NOT to be directed to keep the Law of Moses. They were just given a few essentials so as not to offend the Jewish believers as there was now no difference between Jew and Gentile in Christ and they were fellowshipping together, also that they abstain from immorality.
gabbygirl Says:

April 22, 2008 at 9:16 pm
has anyone else ever read the book “Turmoil in the Toybox”? it was written by phil phillips, and it was another forced read at Hephzibah House. not only does he claim cabbage patch dolls to be demonic…he also claims my little pony, rainbow brite, the smurfs, barbie, care bears, he man…on and on!
thatmom Says:

April 23, 2008 at 11:14 am
Gabby, I have been asking around with people I know personally and came up with a couple interesting things…

A girl in my town actually just got out of HH recently. My friend knows her grandmother. I am trying to see if I can talk with this girl….these things must be done delicately!

Also, I have another friend whose brother and family have had some contact with these sorts of churches and she told me that they know a girl who went to a similar place in Texas and died there. No one was ever able to find out what exactly she died from, even the family members who traveled there. Do you have any knowledge of this sort of place in Texas, too? Or does HH have any affiliates?
Rae Says:

April 23, 2008 at 12:57 pm
#111 and Lynn,

Never married and no kids??? My word! And he’s an expert in raising families?
gabbygirl Says:

April 23, 2008 at 12:58 pm
i would be so interested for someone to talk to the girl who just recently got out of Hephzibah House. unfortunately, i know how brainwashed each girl is upon leaving, and it often takes many years to be able to even talk about HH. they drilled it into us that if it weren’t for them, we would end up on drugs, on the streets, in jail, or dead. so i know i personally felt like they saved my life (from what exactly, i don’t know)! but it took me years to see the light!!!!

as far as any affiliation with texas. i only know things through rumor… we all know about the lester roloff string of homes in texas, and they were even more abusive than HH. there are many stories circulating about an affiliation between roloff and ron williams of HH. i’ve had people tell me that when roloff was under investigation in texas he would hide his girls @ HH (and vice versa)! i know of many times that ron williams hid the HH girls when he was facing investigations from the state. also, i have been told that before opening HH, ron operated a home in texas, but that he was shut down by the state. i have not been able to find proof of him operating in texas, but it has been told to me by several people. i would not be at all surprised to know that a girl died in the lester roloff homes. i have quite a few contacts who are former roloff survivors, so if someone needs to get in touch with them, please let me know.

if someone does come in contact with the girl who recently got out of HH… we do have a website made up of former students.
http://www.formerhephzibahgirls.webs.com
thanks so much!!!
Rae Says:

April 23, 2008 at 1:00 pm
What has led you to your current parenting style? How was it formed?
Cynthia Gee Says:

April 23, 2008 at 1:07 pm
“Do you have any knowledge of this sort of place in Texas, too? Or does HH have any affiliates?”

That would probably be one of the Roloff Homes, Karen. They were run by the late Baptist “pastor” Lester Roloff, and were investigated for the torture and starvation of children, including pregnant girls:

http ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lester_Roloff#The_Roloff_Homes

(I broke the link because WordPress won’t allow it for some reason. )
thatmom Says:

April 23, 2008 at 1:59 pm
Rae Says:
April 23, 2008 at 12:57 pm

#111 and Lynn,

Never married and no kids??? My word! And he’s an expert in raising families?

This is the same reaction I have to Nancy Leigh Demoss and Carolyn McCulley doing workshops on being godly wifes. Of course, the Bible does say that the older women are to teach the younger women to love their husbands and children.

This also reminds me of something Corrie and I talked about on our podcasts. It seems ludicrous that a woman or couple married only a few years be counseling others on family matters. Some of the most popular blogs out there for women are run by girls in their young to mid twenties and they offer all sorts of parenting and marriage advice! I also remember reading a woman counseling a young wife and finding out that n actuality the counselee had been married much longer! This is not to say that all women who have been married a long time should be counseling or all young women who have been married shouldn’t be. But I think there is something to say about going to older couples who have been married for decades. I have friends who have recently celebrated a 65th wedding anniversary and let me tell you, they are an inspiration! Honeymooners rarely have the insights necessary to inspire those who are struggling!
Cynthia Gee Says:

April 23, 2008 at 2:04 pm
Karen, WordPress is eating my Roloff Home comments — it doesn’t even say that they are in moderation, or give me an error message, they just disappear. I sent the last one to you E-mailbox
Cynthia Gee Says:

April 23, 2008 at 2:05 pm
Hmmm.. something cut that last comment off in mid sentence, too.
Cynthia Gee Says:

April 23, 2008 at 2:09 pm
Check this out, from Rick Ross’s site:

Schools hail pastor as a hero who redeemed teens
Post-Dispatch/November 17, 2002
By Matthew Franck
A half-smiling portrait of a deceased radio preacher steals the attention of all who enter the small lobby of Mountain Park Baptist Boarding Academy.

It’s the visage of Lester Roloff, who is seen by several Missouri reform schools as a hero in the battle to bring wayward teens to Jesus, while fending off the demons of government control.

Mountain Park’s Web site proudly says that the school’s founder was personally trained by the minister. Elsewhere in Missouri, Agape Boarding School and Thanks to Calvary say they are not Roloff schools, but their leaders praise the pastor’s work and display photos of him. Agape has named one of its dorms in Roloff’s honor.

Roloff, who died in a plane crash in 1982, is perhaps best known for his “Family Altar” radio ministry, which was once broadcast from Corpus Christi, Texas, to more than 140 stations.

As his radio ministry grew, the fundamentalist Baptist preacher began reaching out to drug-addicted men and rebellious teens. By the late 1960s, he was taking in dozens of wayward girls, most of whom were pregnant.

His philosophy was to immerse the girls in a monastic lifestyle of Bible teachings. He kept the teens in check with the rod of corporal punishment. It was a pattern for dealing with defiant teens that appealed to parents from across the country and is still followed today. But Roloff left another legacy.

In state after state, and in decade after decade, teen reform homes inspired by Roloff have been investigated for abuse, raided by child protective service officials, and ultimately forced to close for failing to comply with state laws.

When a home was closed, ministers would simply pack up and move where laws were friendlier. And for the exiled, Missouri has proved to be a safe harbor.

The founders of Mountain Park moved to Missouri from Mississippi in 1987, after a judge ordered teens removed from the school. And in 1996, Agape Boarding School moved here after regulatory hassles in Washington state.

But Missouri’s first encounter with Roloff homes dates back even further, when two of the original reform schools founded by Roloff were booted out of Texas.

By the time the Rebekah Home for Girls and Anchor Home for Girls came to Missouri in 1985, the reform schools had been the subject of 12 years of court battles.

The schools, which Roloff opened in Corpus Christi in 1967, caught the attention of investigators in 1973, when visiting parents reported seeing a girl whipped at the school. According to news reports, 16 girls at the school told investigators they had been whipped, paddled, handcuffed and in some cases confined to “cells.”

Court battles followed, and at one point, Roloff was jailed for refusing to follow court-ordered reforms. Supporters rallied behind Roloff for years, but ultimately Texas forced the reform schools out.

Here, the Roloff ministry found favorable laws and a convenient location outside Kansas City. Boys and girls occupied unused space at Richards-Gebaur Airport and nearby Calvary Baptist College.

Over the next 18 months, police and prosecutors began hearing allegations of abuse from teens who had run away from the school. According to news reports in the Kansas City Times, a 16-year-old turned up at a hospital with a broken wrist, claiming he had been beaten when he tried to escape. Another boy had half a testicle removed after a classmate kneed him in the groin and the school refused to offer medical care. The victim’s mother did not press charges.

Police told the Times of escapees who described isolation cells and beatings with a wooden paddle. One boy told of having to lick his own excrement as a penalty for soiling his pants.

Two days after the stories appeared in 1987, the Missouri homes moved the kids to a Louisiana reform school with ties to Roloff.

But even after all the allegations of abuse, Missouri remained friendly to Roloff homes. Within months of the departure of the Kansas City homes, the founders of Mountain Park picked the state as their base camp.

Supporters of the Roloff homes say the ministry has been unfairly criticized over the years.

David Gibbs III is an attorney with the Christian Law Association, which has defended Roloff homes in court for decades. He said the media tend to fixate on a few unfortunate incidents.

Still, across the nation, states have closed the door on Roloff’s teen ministry.

In 1983, allegations of abuse at Ruth’s Home of Compassion in Rome, Ga., ultimately led the state to close the school for failing to obtain a license.

And for decades, Louisiana locked horns with the New Bethany Home for Girls. Though the school was not officially a Roloff home, Roloff was at one point listed as a board member of the school, according to news reports. The state removed students at least twice, and an administrator at a sister school in South Carolina served one year of probation after investigators in 1984 found a teenager lying on the floor in a narrow padlocked cell.

More recently, in Texas, then-Gov. George W. Bush pushed through laws in 1997 that allowed the Roloff homes to reopen there. But claims of abuse resurfaced at the homes.

In 1999, two boys claimed they were made to run over thorns and dig in a filthy pit throughout the night. The incident resulted in a criminal misdemeanor conviction for a school employee for unlawful restraint. It also served as a sort of last straw for the Texas Legislature.

Last year, Texas once again did what Missouri has not – closed the door to Roloff’s ministry by requiring all faith-based residential programs to obtain a license or shut down.
Cynthia Gee Says:

April 23, 2008 at 2:15 pm
Well I just tries for the sixth time to post a NY Times article on the roloff homes, and it will not print, in part or in its entirety. I give up.
thatmom Says:

April 23, 2008 at 2:17 pm
http://www.nospank.net/colloff.htm

here is another article about Roloff.
Sandy Says:

April 23, 2008 at 2:18 pm
“It seems ludicrous that a woman or couple married only a few years be counseling others on family matters. ”

This is an issue I with which I personally struggle. I see couples in my practice that have gone to ministers, etc. in churches that are still young and unseasoned and things get worse. I’m all about pastoral counseling for certain issues, but believe strongly that maturity matters in many issues. Balance seems to come with experience ( though not always ) and I’ve found a couple of the biggest mistakes young counselors make are taking sides and being dogmatic about nonbiblical issues. That’s not to say that there are not some young people who can counsel well, it’s more a matter of maturity and experience. (BTW this is one of my biggest objections to the Botkins sisters advice.)
millenniumwoman Says:

April 23, 2008 at 2:20 pm
Rae Says:
April 23, 2008 at 12:57 pm

By REGINALD STUART, SPECIAL TO THE NEW YORK TIMES
Published: March 5, 1982
Former residents of a ”Christian home” for troubled girls have asserted in a lawsuit here that they were beaten, denied adequate meals and ”brainwashed.”
The charges were made in affidavits and testimony in Federal District Court today, in a suit seeking the release of all the residents of the Bethesda Home for Girls Inc. of Hattiesburg, Miss. The facility is affiliated with a network of ”Christian homes” in which Lester Roloff, a Texas evangelist, plays a supporting role.
Disciplinary methods used in Mr. Roloff’s homes for wayward girls in Texas stirred concern several years ago before many of the practices were stopped. Another Roloff-affiliate home in Georgia is under attack by parents of children there and by some Georgia lawmakers Last month a hearing was held on charges, similar to those lodged in the Mississippi case, against Ruth’s Home of Compassion in Rome, Ga.
Officials of Bethesda Home have refused to discuss the girls’ charges of mistreatment, which included assertions of attempts to ”brainwash” them. In a recent interview in The Montgomery Advertiser, Bobby Ray Wills, a principal operator of the home, challenged those reports. He acknowledged that the girls had to listen to certain religious tapes but said, ”It’s a washing, but it’s called bloodwashing and heartwashing.” Officials Due to Testify
Mr. Wills is expected to testify with other officials named in the lawsuit, being heard by Judge Myron Thompson. The testimony today of a 16-year-old Arkansas girl, identified in court as Donna M., echoed what was said in affidavits and testimony by other girls recently released from the home. The girls’ full names are not being used in the court case to protect their identities because they are minors.
Under questioning, Donna M. said she tried to run away in November but was caught. She was grabbed by the hair, she told the court, and disciplined by Linda Williams, an employee of the home. Donna said she was struck 19 times with a wooden board and ”put in a tub of hot water” to disguise scars and bruises.
School officials produced a half-inch-thick piece of wood, about 18 inches long and 3 inches wide, that they said was used for discipline. Donna testified that another piece of wood, a split baseball bat with holes in it, was also used at the school. Another witness testified that a longer and thicker board was used. Willing to Take a Risk
David C. Gibbs Jr., a Cleveland lawyer, is representing the school, Mr. Wills and Miss Williams in the case. When he cross-examined Donna today, @she acknowledged that she knew that fleeing the home was against the rules and that she would be disciplined if she was caught. She said she was willing to take that risk.
Mr. Gibbs stressed during his cross-examination of Donna and Cindy T. that all the girls at the home were aware that the home had strict rules of discipline based on their religious convictions. Cindy, 16, of Quitman, Miss., testified that she was beaten several times for talking about her past, talking about fleeing the home, and for getting low grades in the academic program.
Today’s court hearing resulted from a complaint filed with the court last month by relatives of a 19-year-old unwed Hayneville, Ala., woman, who was about five months pregnant at the time and had been sent to the home on the recommendation of a minister of a church here. The woman’s relatives subsequently decided that they might have been misled about the home’s environment.
Her understanding, said Candy H., the plaintiff in the suit, in an affidavit filed with the court, was that the home would provide a refuge from possible public ridicule over her pregnancy out of wedlock, provide religious counseling and arrange for her to put her baby up for adoption by Christians. Conditions for Getting Help
As a condition of this help, she said, she was required to sign a contract saying she would stay at the home for a year, would make no phone calls for three months and receive no letters from males. These are standard rules, all sides concede, calling for punishment if they are disregarded. A call by Candy to a relative a few days after she entered the home, however, prompted her sister and mother to seek her release.
In an affidavit filed with the court, Candy, who has been sitting at the plaintiff’s table throughout the day’s proceedings, said: ”I am concerned for the health and safety of other girls at the Bethesda Home for Girls, particularly the physical and mental health of the unwed pregnant girls for the following reasons:
”Pam Hurd, a pregnant girl who has been at the Bethesda Home for Girls for two months, was beaten a week ago by Linda Williams in her office with a wooden board. Pam Hurd returned from Mrs. Williams’s office crying and in great pain. Pam Hurd sat in her desk and continued to cry. Pam is five months pregnant.
”Veronica, a helper at Bethesda Home for Girls, threatened Pam with additional beatings if she did not stop crying. Pam responded, ‘I just can’t help it, because it hurts.’ ”
”Pregnant girls are repeatedly told they are worse than murderers for having sex out of wedlock,” the affidavit said. ”Pregnant girls are demeaned in front of other girls. This was very upsetting to the girls, as it was to me.”
millenniumwoman Says:

April 23, 2008 at 2:22 pm
Cynthia, I don’t know why it worked but it did!

The friend who told me about the Texas place said it was in the early 60′s so probably wasn’t a Roloff home. I wonder what others ones are out there.

Also, did you notice that Roloff was also associated with Hyles-Anderson College….the wreckage of his airplane is on permanent display there? Weird.
Cynthia Gee Says:

April 23, 2008 at 2:33 pm
I noticed that the girls were required to remain at the Bethesda home for a period of one year, which means that if they were pregnant, they would have given birth there.
I wonder what happened to the babies?
J. Wesley Says:

April 23, 2008 at 9:28 pm
Hey all,

I don’t want to distract from this thread topic, but I have a quick question for you all. I’m putting together a series of posts on Christianity and gender roles in the postmodern environment.

You all have clearly spent a lot more time camping out on this issue than I have. If any of you have links to good threads here or any other solid online resources about Christianity and gender or gender roles in postmodernity, I’d really appreciate reading them.

If anyone has a sec, please feel free to email links to conservativeintelligencer@gmail.com

Again, sorry to interrupt.
Erica Says:

April 24, 2008 at 2:33 am
I just wanted to jump in on the issue about young people giving parenting and marriage advice. It has long been amazing to me how many popular speakers, authors, and now bloggers there are who are set up as some sort of authority without the life experience to back it up.

James Dobson started writing parenting books before he was a parent. He has two children, and really, to me, I do not think that raising two children is even enough experience to really be able to give a wide range of advice. To me, if you think you’ve got it all figured out about parenting, just have a few more kids until you realize that all of your neat little philosophies aren’t so perfect any more.

Gary Ezzo: Two children, both girls. And as far as I know, their parenting philosophy was not used when their children were growing up. I have read that this was something they developed later on in life. (If someone else has info on this, please jump in and correct me if I’m wrong)

Penelope Leach, and the Baby Whisperer: No kids for either of them, right?

Gothard: No wife. No kids.

Then we have popular homeschool convention speakers and others in the homeschool realm set up as some sort of shining example of how to be proper Christian husbands, wives, and parents: Israel Wayne, all of the Pearl children and spouses that are willing to participate so far, the adult Maxwell children, the Botkin sisters. All young people with little life experience thus far.

It is so odd to me that people are so gullible as to become such enthusiasts of these people that

1. have so little life experience to back up any of their theories or teachings

2. you do not know in real life, so who knows if you would even want to follow these people’s example without personally seeing the fruit of their lives?

Really, honestly, what homeschool mom with 5 or 6 kids really needs to hear a 20-something Israel Wayne who is married with 2 little kids at the time, preach to her about how she should dress, and how to be a good homeschool mom and a wife? What on earth does this young guy know about being a mom or homeschooling? Not enough. That’s what.

Young mothers in particular seem desperate for someone to follow, and seem reluctant to take counsel from more experienced mothers. I have observed this myself many times, that the young moms at church only want to talk to other young moms and that is where they get all of their advice. If an older mom gives them advice (even if they ask for the advice), inevitably it is not what they want to hear and they will go out of their way to avoid asking for help from that mom again.

It seems to me that our imaginations about what others “must be like” from the little bits we get to learn about them through a blog, web site, or seeing someone speak at a conference if very powerful. I have personally experienced situations where women who barely knew me through our homeschool support group had made up powerful imagined ideas about my life, my homeschooling methods and abilities, even what my house was like! Even without ever having made any such claims or pretending to be something that I’m not, somehow the ideas crept up that I had all of this amazing stuff going on. It is just so powerful how we make things up and then try to live up to these homemade ideals.

I have been on moms-of-many egroups for years and seen women complain about negative comments they have received about having more children, etc. and it all sounds so sad. And then I got to meet some of them. And when you see a disheveled mom with umpteen children all looking dirty, unhappy, unruly, out of control, schooling barely getting done if at all, living in a run-down house with a mostly absentee father or whatever, you can suddenly see that there is much more to the story than just some sweet mom with her sweet kids getting rude comments from the people that know them. Kind of takes the blinders off, you know?

Real life is messy. We prefer to give our money to far-away charities rather than close-up poor people with character issues and bad habits that we do not like. We idealize that which we do not observe. It seems to be epidemic, and for some reason Christians seem to be some of the least discerning of all.

~Erica
mom to six great kids
shilohmm Says:

April 24, 2008 at 3:14 am
Part of my problem with Hephzibah House and others of its ilk is that there are so many secular others of its ilk, if you see what I mean. I have a lot of problems with Ezzo and Gothard on the same grounds, but I haven’t seen any evidence that Hephzibah House argues its techniques work even if you pull out the “God-stuff”, while both Ezzo and Gothard do make that claim. But whether they make that argument or not, they’re treating their charges almost exactly as the secular “troubled child” sort of organizations do, except they’re more upfront about the physical abuse (the secular places generally disguise their abuse as “restraint”).

When these organizations treat children and teenagers just as harshly as the secular world does – or even worse! – how is this servant leadership? How do they reconcile these cruelties to all the verses warning us against our own sins? How do they reconcile them to all the verses on how leaders and people in authority are supposed to act? Best I can tell, by completely ignoring these passages and focusing on the passages about how children should act.

Which, as many authors have pointed out, is rather like reading someone else’s mail. :p God’s not going to buy, “But you said they had to obey me!” when he asks why they were so cruel to his own. He’s going to point to the verses clearly addressed to leaders and say, “What is that to you? Your job was to discipline with love.”
Peaches Says:

April 24, 2008 at 3:32 am
Erica said, “It seems to me that our imaginations about what others “must be like” from the little bits we get to learn about them through a blog, web site, or seeing someone speak at a conference if very powerful.”

This reminds me of something Frank Schaeffer talked about in his latest book, Crazy For God. His mother, Edith, traveled a lot and did conferences along with his father, Francis Schaeffer. Frank mentioned that he and his sisters joked about how the stuff his mom was teaching other women was not what she practiced at home. And I think Edith was one of the first big names to start advocating home schooling if my memory is correct.
Cynthia Gee Says:

April 24, 2008 at 12:22 pm
I just finished reading then review of that book — it says that when Frank “was in his early teens, it was discovered that after years of casual homeschooling, he could do little more than read”. Here’s the URL for the review, the second page deals with Frank Schaeffer’s impression of American Big Religion:

(url is broken so as to get through WordPress, remove the @@@@ .)

http@@@@://www.thenation.com/doc/20071015/smiley
Rae Says:

April 24, 2008 at 7:36 pm
Thank you for your comments, Erica, re: following younger people.

I heard Frank Schaeffer on tv. I think he had dyslexia and that’s why it was hard for him to read. The tv interview was very interesting.
molleth Says:

April 24, 2008 at 8:58 pm
gabbygirl,
Just letting you know that I AM putting that information on my blog. I’ve just been REALLY busy this week so far. I appreciate you getting it all together for us, though, and AM putting it up sometime between now and Monday or Tuesday of next week.
THANKS!
Love,
Molly
Hephzibah House in Indiana: Abuse Still Going On, Over 30 Years Later « adventures in mercy Says:

April 25, 2008 at 7:34 am
[...] recently sent this email to State lawmakers, and attached this article of Ron Williams to her email. I am planning on [...]
molleth Says:

April 25, 2008 at 5:41 pm
The HH article is up on my blog now. Let me know if you have any new contacts to add to it and/or any updates.
Warmly,
Molly
molleth Says:

April 25, 2008 at 5:45 pm
I read, “Crazy for God,” and while I’m a little uncomfortable recommending it (he gets SO into private details about himself, his parents, etc), I do recommend it.

In fact, I think it’s an important read in one respect, almost “required,” particularly to ANYONE who’s ever been involved in Christian fundamentalism, because it completely shatters any remaining illusions of personal perfection (of ourselves and of our Evangelical popes/leaders) in a wonderful/painful way.

“On Christ the Solid Rock I stand,
All other ground is sinking sand…”
Beatrice Says:

April 25, 2008 at 6:07 pm
I definately am going to read Crazy For God if I get the chance. Just reading something like this book is, by someone who STILL kept his faith, is going to be very soothing for me. I said before that Christians just seem sooooo nuts sometimes. Well, hopefully it will help to read someone who readily admits to this widespread nuttiness.

“All other ground …”

(awesome hymn, btw)
Susan Says:

April 26, 2008 at 12:19 am
Hi, I am a former Hephzibah house student and my brother was a student at Lester Roloffs lighthouse for boys. Thank you for helping us bring these places into the light. We have not been heard for far too long.
Cynthia Gee Says:

April 26, 2008 at 4:14 am
Talk about TIMING — this article about child abuse ran in the Times Union, the local newspaper in Kosciusko County and Warsaw, Indiana, less than two weeks ago. At the end of the article people are invited to call one of several contact numbers if they have any information regarding chld abuse in Kosciusko County or the Warsaw area.
What do you think — perhaps we all ought to call or email both Delores Hearn AND the Times Union regarding child abuse that is STLL taking place right under their noses, at H-House in Winona Lake?

home : local : letters to editor
4/14/2008 2:42:00 PM

Child Abuse
Editor, Times-Union:

Last year in Indiana, more than 63,000 children were reported as being abused or neglected and over one-third of those were substantiated. Thirty-six deaths were documented due to abuse and neglect, most often at the hands of a family member or friend. In Kosciusko County, the DCS investigated three deaths, one of which was documented and tried just last month.

While it is important to take note of these statistics and to learn from them, it is perhaps even more important to prevent abuse and neglect from happening in the first place. That’s why April has been designated Indiana Child Abuse and Neglect Prevention Awareness Month. Prevention is possible, and we encourage Kosciusko County citizens to join us in the effort to stop the pain before it starts.

Here are a few simple ways each of us can help prevent child abuse and neglect:

- Be a nurturing parent. Children need to know that they are special and loved. Educate yourself about a child’s development process so you can have reasonable expectations about what your child can and cannot do.

- Help a friend, neighbor or relative. Being a parent isn’t easy. Someone you know may be struggling with his or her parenting responsibilities. Offer a helping hand.

- Help yourself. When the big and little problems of everyday life pile up to the point you feel overwhelmed and out of control, take time out. Know where you can turn for help when you need it.

- Learn how to calm a crying baby. It can be frustrating to hear your baby cry, especially when nothing you do seems to work. Learn what to do if your baby won’t stop crying. But, never shake a baby!

- Get involved. Advocate for services to help families. Ask your community leaders, clergy, library and schools to develop services to meet the needs of children and families.

- Spend time with your children. Playing with your children, reading to them, or just being with them helps them feel loved. Make time everyday for quality time.

- Report suspected abuse or neglect. Keeping children safe is the responsibility of every adult in our community. If you have reason to believe that a child has been or may be harmed, call 574-267-8108. Remember – it’s the law in Indiana to report suspected child abuse or neglect.

For more information about how to prevent child abuse and neglect, call Child Abuse Prevention Council Kosciusko County at 574-371-1310 or Prevent Child Abuse Indiana at 800-CHILDREN (800-244-5373).

Delores Hearn, President

Child Abuse Prevention Council of Kosciusko County Inc.

http://www.timesuniononline.com/main.asp?SectionID=2&SubSectionID=232&ArticleID=32372&TM=84230.88
TulipGirl Says:

April 26, 2008 at 11:59 am
Kosciusko County Child Abuse Prevention Council
Delores Hearn
PO Box 1102
Warsaw, IN 46581-1102
574-371-1310
dmhearn@earthlink.net
TulipGirl Says:

April 26, 2008 at 12:12 pm
(Btw, there is a spam filter associated with that email address. . .)
Cynthia Gee Says:

April 27, 2008 at 4:47 pm
Hi all, look at this, from ABC News:

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4701959&page=1

“Residential programs for troubled teens will be getting more scrutiny from Congress this week, where investigators will reveal the results of an undercover investigation.
Some of the outfits, which purport to help troubled children, have generated hundreds of allegations of death and physical, sexual and emotional abuse, ABC News reported last October.

“Kids being forced to eat their own vomit, to eat dirt, to not be allowed to go to the bathroom…all in the idea that somehow this is building character,” is how Rep. George Miller, D-Calif., described what congressional investigators found when they probed some of the programs. ”

At a hearing before Miller’s House Education and Labor Committee Thursday, investigators are expected to reveal alarming new details showing how deceptive marketing and conflicts of interest could lead good parents to send their children to bad programs, Hill sources say.
Miller is also expected to introduce legislation aimed at strengthening oversight of the programs. At a hearing last fall, investigators told Congress that “boot camp”-style programs tend to be loosely regulated and are sometimes found to have untrained staff using reckless or negligent operating practices.

“We cannot afford to take these [programs] away from the parents as an option,” Jan Moss, president of the National Association of Therapeutic Schools and Programs (NATSAP), told ABC News last fall.

She acknowledged, however, before Congress later, “We have made mistakes in the past; we recognize that.”

I just sent them what I know about HHouse, they’d probably love to hear as much as possible from as many people as possible:
http://abcnews.go.com/Site/page?id=3072379
Rae Says:

April 28, 2008 at 10:36 am
Another question.

What has been the best way for you to build relationships with other moms/parents so that you trust your children with their children? I guess this is one of my issues. I really don’t know many people well enough to allow my children to spend time with their children.
Rae Says:

April 28, 2008 at 12:00 pm
Oh, another thing in relation to my last question. Does the small townness of “The Andy Griffith Show” or “Little House on the Prairie” exist anywhere today? One goes to church and the store and the post office and school and work with all the same people. You know people from many different angles. Nowadays, neighbors don’t know each other. People go to church not in their town. The Walmarts exist that draw people away from their neighborhood store, if it even exists anymore.

Has community died? Where is YOUR community?

If I only see a person at church and know nothing about their character, how can I get to know them? This kind of goes along with trusting parenting gurus via a book or website without really knowing them.

I came from a small town and have moved some. I would trust my kids with my old friends that I grew up with, but I haven’t had those deep relationships in the other towns I’ve lived in.
Peaches Says:

April 28, 2008 at 2:06 pm
Rae asked: “If I only see a person at church and know nothing about their character, how can I get to know them? ”

Many years ago, we decided to regularly start having people in our home. That has been a huge help in developing relationships. It’s easy to get in the habit of going to church, shaking hands, saying “glad to see you’re here” and then hopping in our own cars to go home. You really can’t get to know people until you spend time with them.

Yes, entertaining is a lot of work, but the benefits are wonderful. We’ve figured out ways to simplify the process. For instance if we are planning on having folks over for Sunday lunch after church, I prepare a big crock pot meal so it’s ready when we get home. Or, if we’re having folks over in the evening we’ll let them know our family is having a pizza night (we’ll get take out from our favorite local pizza place) and ask them if they’d like to join us. It doesn’t get much easier than pizza and coke, and the kids love it.

We’ve also made a point to have a variety of people in our house – single folks, college students, retired folks as well as those like us who are married with kids. A lot of people get in a rut by only spending time with those who are at the same stage of life. It’s fun to be with people of different ages and stages. (hey, I made a rhyme)
Alison Says:

April 28, 2008 at 6:49 pm
I wish I had time to read this whole thread, but I don’t, so if I’m repeating something already said, please forgive me. I just wanted to say to Gabbygirl, I’m so sorry for what you’ve been through. And in reference to your comment #56, I would classify a forced vaginal exam as sexual abuse. I hope this place is closed very soon and all the abuse is stopped!

Also, I was introduced to “Gothardism” at age 15, when my family joined ATI. It’s scary to me that the extremes within VF, etc. have made Gothard seem “mainstream.” I am so thankful that God has helped me avoid being sucked into this thinking as an adult. Or, perhaps He has helped me out of it, but I personally was never really hooked.
gabbygirl Says:

April 29, 2008 at 2:24 pm
Thank you Cynthia for the contact info for Delores Hearn (we are all over it)! Also, here is contact info for the two people who are hoping to get the Democratic nomination for governor of Indiana. Mitch Daniels (R) current Gov. has ignore all contact that I have made w/ his office. I sent the following little paragraph, along w/ the letter that I sent to Mitch Daniels (and a copy of RW’s article “correction & salvation…”

Jim Schellinger campaign@jimschellinger.com
Jill Long Thompson info@hoosiersforjill.com

I am sending you a copy of a letter that I have sent previously to Governor Mitch Daniels. As you know, April is Child Abuse Prevention Awareness month, and I have tried to alert the Governor to blatant child abuse that is taking place at Hephzibah House in Winona Lake/Warsaw. In light of what is taking place in Texas with the polygamist compound/cult, I trust the the state of Indiana will take these claims seriously. The following letter and attachment is what I had previously sent to Governor Daniels. Thank you in advance for your time and attention to this very important matter.
RichardD Says:

April 29, 2008 at 7:05 pm
Rae – I, too, remember the days when the people in town knew each other, worshiped together, played together, shopped together, and participated in community service together. And I grew up in the suburbs of Washington, DC. I now live in a relatively small town by comparison and don’t see that level of interaction. My family and I had many close friends – now it seems almost impossible to develop friendships.

I think this is a change in our culture that goes much deeper than the size of the town. I think we have all become so self-centered that we no longer do what must be done to develop and maintain relationships. And we toss friendships in the trash way too quickly now.
Rae Says:

April 30, 2008 at 2:06 am
Richard,

>> I think this is a change in our culture that goes much deeper than the size of the town. I think we have all become so self-centered that we no longer do what must be done to develop and maintain relationships. And we toss friendships in the trash way too quickly now.

Thanks for your thoughts. I’ve been wondering similar things. It even gets down to driving into an attached garage and walking into one’s house without having to interact with the outside world!
kevin r smith Says:

April 30, 2008 at 2:07 am
I would like to thank everyone personally for spending time reading all of the blog sites and leaving a comment. THANK YOU! It means a lot to me and will ultimately mean so much more to many girls.
If you don’t know my niece “CAITLIN” is impounded at HH and I am fighting to get her released!
kevin r smith
krszz@hotmail.com
Cynthia Gee Says:

April 30, 2008 at 3:02 am
Hey everybody, here is a site which invites the public to write public reviews of various Winona Lake sites, including Hephzibah House: (remove the @@ and paste the url into your browser)

http@@://web1.userinstinct.com/17117425-hephzibah-house.htm
Cynthia Gee Says:

April 30, 2008 at 3:04 am
” I sent the following little paragraph, along w/ the letter that I sent to Mitch Daniels (and a copy of RW’s article “correction & salvation…””

Excellent… I’ll be praying for you in this!
thatmom Says:

April 30, 2008 at 11:44 am
Rae and Richard,

I want to recommend a DVD to you. It is called The Canteen Spirit and I guarantee you will be further inspired to be part of such a community.

I did a podcast about this WW 2 canteen a few weeks ago and subsequently found this DVD. I decided to buy it because it is a powerful picture of what can be done by volunteers in a community, especially by women.

This story is about the North Platte Canteen in Nebraska and the volunteers who fed over 6 million servicemen and women during the 5 years that the troop trains went through their little town. Truly, it is an amazing story and really unbelievable when you hear the statistics.

I came away from reading the book (Once Upon a Town by Bob Greene) truly overwhelmed with the thought that I do not believe Americans could pull this sort of ministry off today. People are too busy, too self-absorbed, too lazy, frankly, and too unwilling to commit to anything long-term.

This movie is a PBS documentary, about an hour long. You can get it through Netfix or purchase it through Amazon. I HIGHLY recommend it. I cannot tell you how much that DVD has influenced my own thinking about ministry in the past few months.
RichardD Says:

April 30, 2008 at 12:28 pm
Thanks for the recommendation, thatmom. I’ll see if my wife can locate this and purchase it. It sounds right up my wife’s alley.

We have had a bit of kick-back from folks in our church about the fact that we take food and supplies to our local homeless shelter and do some volunteer work there. Some people have said that this sort of work is to be done through the local church only. We do support our local church in similar ways, but this is something we think must be done.

From a selfish point of view, however, I still have not found friendships like I remember my parents having. People just don’t seem to want to get together for socializing these days. I think we’re just all too busy and socializing falls down on the priority list. It’s a shame.

Thatmom – do you have a topical list of your podcasts?
thatmom Says:

April 30, 2008 at 1:14 pm
Richard, check out the podcast archives….most are pretty self-descriptive.

http://www.thatmompodcast.com
kevin r smith Says:

April 30, 2008 at 1:39 pm
The pressure is on.
Please e mail FOX 28 NEWS showing our interest in an investigation. NOW is the time to speak out, the more requests the greater interest the news media will have.

tcapellman@fox28.com

THANK YOU!
kevin r smith
krszz@hotmail.com
Cynthia Gee Says:

April 30, 2008 at 2:09 pm
Kevin, that link requires a login password, I can’t access it.
kevin r smith Says:

April 30, 2008 at 10:57 pm
It’s just an e mail, copy and paste. I had no problems just now when I clicked on it???? If that does not work I can e mail it to you.
Thank you,

~kevin r smith
Cynthia Gee Says:

May 1, 2008 at 2:34 am
Kevin, I tried it both ways, and it won’t let me in. Do I have to register with the site somehow?
RichardD Says:

May 1, 2008 at 2:37 am
thatmom – thanks, I had not noticed the podcast archives link in your list of links on the side. I have bookmarked that page.
kevin r smith Says:

May 1, 2008 at 2:53 am
Cynthia, e mail me and I will send it to you. Try to write it down and just type the e mail address in your e mail provider bar. Not sure what’s going on with it.

kevin r smith
krszz@hotmail.com
kevin r smith Says:

May 1, 2008 at 3:56 pm
http://www.isaccorp.org/

http://www.secretprisonsforteens.dk/US/hephzibahhouse.htm

http://www.heal-online.org/

http://teenadvocatesusa.homestead.com/holythechildren.HTML

http://www.formerhephzibahgirls.webs.com/

http://adventuresinmercy.wordpress.com/2008/04/24/hephzibah-house-in-indiana-abuse-still-going-on-over-30-years-later/#comment-18828

http://hephzibah-girls.blogspot.com/

http://www.hephzibahhouse.com/

http://www.squidoo.com/hephzibah

http://www.myspace.com/hephzibahgirls
Jeannine Says:

May 1, 2008 at 4:19 pm
While reading through this thread I remembered a BBC documentary I watched last year which really shocked me (and still does). It is called “Taming the problem child”, following children who are treated by Dr. Ron Federici. I think it is called “attachment therapy”.
The following is a quote from abc.net.au:

“For at least 30 days, the child must stay within three feet of its parents, 24 hours a day. They have to be totally compliant to whatever their parents want and if they refuse to obey they are forced down onto the floor and held there. Their bedrooms are stripped bare; they are never left alone, nor allowed to see friends. Then, through a gradual process of reward and punishment, the child will eventually be reintroduced to their toys, their peers and the outside world. The treatment can last for months.”

The therapy also then includes attachment parts with rocking, holding, bottle feeding (of 12 year olds!) etc.
kevin r smith Says:

May 1, 2008 at 4:38 pm
Hello Ladies,
please e mail me and tell me how you and your families are. I sincerely want to hear from you. My son lost his 2nd tooth and is close to losing his 3rd one. Hope everyone is having a good week. Thank you,

~kevin r smith

krszz@hotmail.com
gabbygirl Says:

May 1, 2008 at 9:07 pm
jeannine…that sounds a little creepy!
TulipGirl Says:

May 4, 2008 at 2:22 pm
“This story is about the North Platte Canteen in Nebraska and the volunteers who fed over 6 million servicemen and women during the 5 years that the troop trains went through their little town. Truly, it is an amazing story and really unbelievable when you hear the statistics.”

I didn’t get to listen to this until this week. Oh, wow! What amazing community spirit and outreach and support to our soldiers–and not just in words.

Times have changed, though. . . No longer do we have troops coming through town on train. Or other easy access to encourage and support the military men and women. I’ve heard of some volunteer “support” and care packages that aren’t as appropriate for the field troops as the supporters at home think they are.

I know this is veering off topic, but does anyone know practical, supportive ways families (with kids!) can show their thanks and support to our servicemembers overseas? (My bil will likely be heading to Iraq in December. . .)
gabbygirl Says:

May 16, 2008 at 4:59 am
We are still here even though we’ve been a little silent the past week. We did have some encouraging news by way of an interview w/ Fox news…update to follow soon hopefully! Thanks again for all of your help everyone!
TulipGirl Says:

May 27, 2008 at 5:14 am
Some interesting conversations are going on over at Molly’s blog, related to the topic of parenting models in the church.

On The Biblical Case for Spanking Our Kids
Scripture Speaks on First Time Obedience
Hold Your Kids to an Unkeepable Standard (Then They Will Understand “Mercy)”
TulipGirl Says:

May 27, 2008 at 5:15 am
(Just a head’s up. . . I have a link-heavy comment in moderation! Thanks!)
molleth Says:

May 28, 2008 at 5:16 am
Aw, thanks, TG. Your input has been great on those threads, btw.
kevin r smith Says:

May 31, 2008 at 1:29 am
CAITLIN IS HOME!!!!!!

I have no other information except that she is home, my ex-sister-in-law just notified us.

~kevin r smith
TulipGirl Says:

June 5, 2008 at 2:35 am
I’ve seen Voddie Baucham’s name connected with Vision Forum and elsewhere, but to this point I’ve been unfamiliar with him. So, out of curiousity, I downloaded an MP3 sermon/lecture. (Actually, I hope it wasn’t a sermon. . .) It was the one on “Child Training” as recorded at Hardin Baptist Church.

I was beyond disappointed. Beyond appalled. While he was quite vocal in rejecting current North American culture, he failed to realize that instead he was preaching another set of cultural norms. These teachings on the family were based on his cultural “vision” for the family, NOT THE BIBLE. And. . . sadly. . . I don’t think he saw it.

His references to the Scripture were few and far between. When he did reference Scripture, he jumped to his assumed application of it, without carefully exegeting the passage. In doing so, he blindly accepted his own cultural biases as Biblical truth.

Furthermore, there was a lack of reference to the Gospel or the power of Jesus Christ to change lives. Much was made of children’s sin (and to some degree, parent’s sin–usually in the context of parents who do not embrace his cultural values). But though much was made of sin, there was a profound lack of pointing to Christ, the gospel and grace.

Parents could find some encouragement in this talk. It was memorably organized, “holding our children’s attention, their minds, their hands.” But the false assumptions, lack of true Biblical support for his presentation, and some truly harmful teachings make this presentation one I’d warn against. And put up quite a few yellow flags when it comes to Voddie Baucham’s teachings in general.
TulipGirl » Blog Archive » The Perfect Family Says:

June 11, 2008 at 12:38 am
[...] that idealized family, how many of us have turned to the Pearls, the Ezzos, the Phillips, the Bauchams. . . or whoever currently has a voice and paints a pretty picture of an ideal [...]
Julie Says:

June 11, 2008 at 2:46 am
Regarding Voddie Baucham–I’ve not listened to his messages at all, but I have read his book Family Driven Faith and in general had a positive impression. He talks a lot about family discipleship and he’s a huge advocate of the family integrated church. He discusses how education should be distinctly Christian, but doesn’t outright SAY that you should ONLY homeschool. He seems to leave the option open for Christian private schools. I sense some similarities between him and Doug Phillips, but in some ways, he doesn’t seem as “fringe” as Phillips does. Maybe I need to listen to him sometime…

But Tulipgirl is so right on this blog post about the perfect family. Why do we need something in addition to the Bible to raise our kids???
teri Says:

June 12, 2008 at 2:54 am
I was raised off of rt 49 in valpo Indiana.
The church of christ is not governed by any one place either. I was able to bring a lawsuit against the place. I was not successful in closing the place. There had been many cases of abuse but I could only talk about mine. The jury did not hear the others.
It came out sad. I felt I was their only voice. You can read about it by google I’m sure. My lawyer was Greg Bowes of Indy.
I applaud all of you.
I will write letters and do anything else I can to help.
One of my jurors said’ it happened in our backyard, to admit that it happened makes us all guilty.’
To ignore this also makes us all guilty.
noneyo Says:

June 12, 2008 at 8:55 pm
IN FACT THAT NIECE CAME OUT OF HER PROBLEMS AND NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT THE”BEATINGS” OR THE “ROD OF GOD”IN FACT SHES ALL FOR THE PLACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!SO STICK THAT IN YOUR PIPE AND SMOKE IT!!!!!OH,BY THE WAY,HAS ANY ONE DONE A BACKGROUND SEARCH ON THOSE GIRLS THAT WERE SUPPOSEDLY IN THE HOUSE?????
noneyo Says:

June 12, 2008 at 8:56 pm
TO TERI, LIARLIARLIARLIARLIARLIARLIAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
TheNormalMiddle Says:

June 12, 2008 at 9:15 pm
noneyo is spamming Molly’s blog too with spiteful (yet Christian?) words…

Take it with a grain of salt, roll your eyes, and move on….
Julie Says:

June 12, 2008 at 9:22 pm
weird. people are so weird. it’s easy to “yell” stuff when no one knows who you are.
kevin r smith Says:

June 14, 2008 at 4:44 am
noneyo, why don’t you put your name, address and number up on any site. Better yet, come say this to my face

13018 SIAM DRIVE
SPRING HILL, FL 34609
YOU are a coward just like the Williams!

~kevin r smith (a/k/a the PIMP)
gabbygirl Says:

June 14, 2008 at 8:16 am
wow…noneyo has been busy. Sorry everyone…I know it is silly to read/listen to that stuff. Funny how the hate just spews forward from someone wanting us to rethink our Christian values. Well, I know that I told the truth about all of the abuse that I received at Hephzibah House, and I believe all of the other girls who shared their stories as well. Thank you everyone for helping us to share our stories (and sorry again that this Noneyo found the site)! PS…here are the sites w/ the FOX news report and the newspaper article… http://www.fox28.com and http://www.timesuniononline.com
molleth Says:

June 14, 2008 at 5:25 pm
YAY! Great job, gabbygirl!
molleth Says:

June 14, 2008 at 5:26 pm
http://www.timesuniononline.com/main.asp?SectionID=2&SubSectionID=224&ArticleID=33697&TM=69002.88

Here’s a link to the second one.
Anne Says:

June 15, 2008 at 4:11 am
I started out as a kind of attachment parent. I didn’t babywear or nurse my first child long, but was very hands on and spent lots and lots of time one on one with him. He’s almost 11 and we’re still very well connected.

With my second child I got a totally different kid. Who knew? She was so spirited, and I wanted to raise a godly child. Sadly, I was given the Pearl’s material and bought into it hook, line, and sinker. I write about my experience with the Pearl’s and how I got away from it on my homeschooling blog:

http://ourhomeschool2.wordpress.com/2006/04/15/my-pearls-experience/

Finally I realized that Piper wasn’t bad, she was just passionate. She wanted boundaries and I had to provide them for her. So I took charge, firmly, but gently.

With my third child I began reading Dr. Sears and finding my path back to the way I’d always thought I should be parenting.

You see, God loves me, and he allows me to suffer consequences for my actions, and learn important lessons. But He doesn’t punish me. In fact, he took the punishment for me. Instead, God shows me grace and understanding.

I believe that my children need firm, strong boundaries, and a mother that they can trust to be consistent. But also kind, warm, gentle, and offering them grace and mercy. I must give them patience as they struggle to learn, just as God gives me patience.

I wish I’d learned some of these lessons sooner. And I worry that I won’t do a good enough job and that my children will be the worse for it. But I don’t trust parents who think they have all the answers or that they know “God’s way” to parent. I think most really conscientious parents are nervous from time to time. Because we want so much for our children to grow up well. And we know that life is messy.
thatmom Says:

June 15, 2008 at 10:53 am
Anne,

Many words of wisdom in that last comment!
kevin r smith Says:

June 17, 2008 at 2:49 am
INTERVIEWS are available to view on FOX 28 for a limited time only!!!

http://www.fox28.com/Global/story.asp?s=8487558

above the HH sign is the video camera link to click on
Anne Says:

June 17, 2008 at 2:05 pm
Thanks for sharing that, Kevin!
kevin r smith Says:

June 17, 2008 at 2:30 pm
No problem Anne, Welcome to our world!
Julie in Ohio Says:

July 8, 2008 at 1:24 am
Just a quick thought.

Doesn’t “attachment therapy” sound very, very similar to the practice called “tomato staking” that is advocated by some uber-conservative types?

If you’re not familiar with this term, stop by http://raisinggodlytomatoes.com and have a look for yourself. It dovetails very well into the Pearls’ teachings.
Cynthia Gee Says:

July 8, 2008 at 8:38 am
“noneyo, why don’t you put your name, address and number up on any site. Better yet, come say this to my face”

Hey, Kevin, don’t sweat it. “noneyo” is a shining example of the kind of “adult” the patriarchal childrearing systems produce.
“Noneyo” should have been left on the tomato vine a bit longer – it appears that he’s not quite ripe yet, and has grown in a rather lopsided fashion, probably from being staked too closely to his mother plant when he was a seedling.
Cynthia Gee Says:

July 8, 2008 at 9:10 am
“If you’re not familiar with this term, stop by http://raisinggodlytomatoes.com and have a look for yourself. It dovetails very well into the Pearls’ teachings.”

Yes, it does, and the former name of the blog is also revealing.
Google “a trip to the woodshed”….
kevin r smith Says:

July 9, 2008 at 8:12 pm
No worries Cynthia, Ignorant Stupid people do not bother me. I have nothing to hide and no one to hide from.

~kevin r smith
Julie in Ohio Says:

July 20, 2008 at 7:13 pm
I know all about that former name, Cynthia. It had to be changed because of backlash from around the ‘Net. Imagine that.
Gypsy Says:

July 21, 2008 at 3:21 pm
I’d never heard of “Tomato Staking” as a parenting strategy before, so I went to the site…and was both puzzled and appalled. I’d also never heard of the Pearls before this, but several years ago when my husband was in seminary we knew many families who followed the Ezzo books. My main concern at the time was that these obedience-based methods didn’t seem to reflect what I was seeing with my own eyes–that children learn from your example. If you want a kid to be obedient, you have to model obedience. If you want your children to be honest and humble, you have to be honest with them and show humility in your interactions with them (Kind of a “Golden Rule” of parenting). Conversely, if you spend all your time enforcing the rules, controlling your children’s behavior, and suspiciously second-guessing their motives and trustworthiness, I fear you might end up with authoritarian, controlling, suspicious children.

On the happy side, when I was a new parent I was given the book “The First Three Years of Life” (by Burton White) by another Christian mom, which really shaped my parenting philosophy and taught me to learn about a child from the child, not from a “method.” It is an older book (even 14 years ago!) and some of the advice is dated, but it had a huge influence on me at the time.

By the way, this is a great site–I’m glad to have found it.
Raven Says:

December 19, 2008 at 12:17 pm
Well… I don’t know if I should comment here, not being a Christian. I got this link from somewhere else and was just reading because I found it interesting. But the first comment on here made me feel panicky and sick to the point of almost vomiting.

I was raised by people who believed this was right. I was beaten, repeatedly, over and over as a child. I never knew when the beating would stop, only when they finally felt I was hysterically crying enough, or my welts were serious enough to compensate for my childish crimes. Over and over I was told this was what God wanted, my will needed to be broken to let God into my heart, if I hadn’t sinned by disobeying or otherwise disappointing my parents I wouldn’t have had to been beaten anyway. this viewpoint was backed up by my church and all of my family’s friends and my teachers in the church’s school. If I had been beaten till I cried, it was obviously my fault for being a sinner and I did not deserve any comfort, but instead further scolding, if I dared complain and show an unrepentant spirit.

The outcome? Perhaps not so much what they would have wanted or expected. I rejected the church, and my family, entirely. We don’t speak. I have lived homeless on the streets rather than ask them for help. The thought of entering a church makes me feel ill. I have no self esteem and years of therapy have not helped. I have a strong antipathy towards Christians and Christianity which I realize is unreasonable and unfair and I am trying to get over that. I can’t get along with men because they terrify me (my father was always the one to carry out the beatings).

I will never hit my son or suffer anyone to hit him, no matter what he does. And its funny – he behaves really well in spite of his “lack of discipline.” In fact, people remark on how well he behaves in public all the time. But then, I’m not Christian so I can’t remark on how you would handle that as a Christian.

Just putting this up as, I guess, a cautionary tale. To anyone who thinks this kind of “discipline” works.
Nicole Says:

December 19, 2008 at 4:18 pm
Raven,
You’re always welcome here! Comment all you want!
I was under the impression that the majority of the first comment was a quote from a article (not necessarily in support of it), based on this:
#1:”I had visited a blog where I read a lengthy tract on child-rearing published by Pastor Williams, which I will include at the end of this letter (hold on to your lunch, it makes the Pearls look like Dr. Spock.) I did some investigating, and was horrified to find that a man with these views actually runs a “school” and has custody of young women.”
#1:”And here, finally, is William’s lengthy take on child rearing, it’s not for the faint of heart:”
followed by other comments
#8: “My heart is just breaking over the material in comment 1. If I truly believed the nature of God was reflected in this, (which I most certainly do not) I would consider killing myself.

My Heavenly Father never wants to break my will just for the sake of breaking it. That would be sadistic. He is not a Person who rejoices in pain for itself.”
another comment by the first poster:
#16: “I called the Child Protective Services in Indiana, but try as I might, I couldn’t get anyone to listen to me there — they said somethiong to the effect that Indiana really didn’t regulate religious schools — so I pretty much gave up trying to help, too, and resigned myself to praying about the situation, yet, at the risk of sounding cliched, the whole thing remained a burden on my heart.”
Thank you though for your concern and for being courageous enough to civilly and politely voice your opinion when you perceived the place to be against you. That takes real character and some major guts
I am very sorry for your years of abuse (I can’t write just HOW sorry I am, it doesn’t convey the message no matter how it comes out) and I pray you find peace and healing. I truly do.
Anyone who abuses a child is abusing the image of God.
joannabug Says:

December 19, 2008 at 4:23 pm
Oh Raven, I’m so sorry for your experience. I don’t post here that much, but I’ve read all the comments by these ladies, and I can tell you that they are whole-heartedly against the kind of abuse at Hepzibah House and that you experience, and some are working very hard against it. If you keep reading, you’ll see some of that.

Thank you for sharing your story. I’m so sorry for the abuse you experienced.
molleth Says:

December 19, 2008 at 6:37 pm
Raven,

(((hugs)))

Thank you so much for sharing here. The more people willing to talk about what happened to them under these kinds of parenting philosophies, the better.

They are so damaging, and the fact that they are promoted in the name of God just adds to the abuse. Now it’s not just physical and emotional, but spiritual abuse too. And NONE of it is okay.

Love,
Molly
Debbie from CA Says:

December 20, 2008 at 7:30 pm
Raven,

I am so sorry for the abuse that you experienced and that it was done in the name of God. That disgusts me in a huge way.

I hope that you are seeking out people in your sphere that care about you and will offer you the love and support you need. And you are always welcome to return here.

Please don’t be afraid to reach out to the many gracious ladies that follow this board with questions or whatever. This is a safe place for you.
Kathleen Says:

December 21, 2008 at 12:53 pm
Raven (I love that name),

I’m sad for the things you went through at the hands of people who thought they were doing God’s will, but were acting on their own broken understanding. It’s taken me 20+ years to figure out some things as a mom on how to better respond in relationship to my children instead of frustration and faulty parenting methods.

One thing you said here:

“The thought of entering a church makes me feel ill.”

I can empathize with that statement from my own experiences, but I wanted to encourage you with this:

By sharing on this site with us, you HAVE entered into the hearts and prayers of God’s church, His people (a building made without hands). Some reading here have gone through many similar things and have never posted a comment. I hope you can get a sense of some of the passion we have for the truth and encouraging, healthy relationships.

(((hugs)))
michelle engel Says:

January 8, 2010 at 6:05 pm
I just learned of this site today from my counselor. I was a member of BBC for l9yrs. Praise the Lord He has brought me out!!!! The pain, regret, what my children went through…
shadowspring Says:

January 9, 2010 at 10:49 am
((((Michelle))) Welcome to freedom! Welcome to humility and healing! Your honesty and regret will be a healing balm to the hearts of your children. May God restore every good thing that BBC stole from you.
Corrie Says:

January 9, 2010 at 4:58 pm
Michelle,

Welcome!

What is the BBC?
Savannah Says:

January 9, 2010 at 7:28 pm
Welcome, Michelle. I’m sorry for everything you’ve gone through. I hope you will share your story with us when you are ready.
shadowspring Says:

January 10, 2010 at 10:12 am
I am guessing that the last two letters are for Bible Church? Not sure. I was about to ask the same question!