I recently went to a lovely bridal shower where several older, married women shared advice with the bride-to-be. The advice was great. This post is definitely not to criticize anything that was said. The purpose of this post is to raise a question about something that wasn’t said.
During the “give-advice-to-the-bride time,” with only Christian women in the room, nothing was said about sex. Come to think about it, I’ve been to many Christian bridal showers where advice was given but never, in my experience, has this topic been raised.
Am I the only one who, during this advice time, is thinking about the unmentioned “elephant in the room”? We all know what brides and grooms do. We also know that sex is a source of conflict for many couples, especially during their first year of marriage. Isn’t it relevant, after all?
Young women are already getting sexual messages from the world—when they turn on the television, drive on the road, stand in line at the grocery store, and also from their friends. Why is it that the Christian community is so averse to talking about it publicly when it’s already a part of everyone’s public lives?
It often seems that because the world inundates us with sexual messages, Christians strive to be even more sheltering and quiet about the subject. We clam up and let the world dominate, which is a very unfortunate lost opportunity.
Whom should we best hear about sex from—older, godly women who can give us truthful messages about the subject or worldly influences and misinformed peers?
Why is it so hard during these “advice times,” when talking about how money can be a problem your first year of marriage, to say that sex can be a problem too and you need to communicate about this area and be patient and persistent in working it out.
Why is it so hard, when telling a bride-to-be that she needs to respect her husband, to say that sex (like respect) is a need—both a physical and emotional one—that men have.
After commenting on the failure of Christian women to speak openly about sex to other women, my husband asked me if, given the chance, I would broach the subject at a shower. I told him that I likely would but, honestly (and unfortunately), it would have required some gut.
How do a lot of Christian young women learn about sex? The overwhelming majority of my friends learned about the “facts of life” in only ONE conversation with their mothers (a few friends told me their mothers didn’t even do this), and then learned everything else they know about sex from worldly sources.
My mom told me and my sister about sex after we heard the word “rape” on television and asked her what it was. I was about seven at the time. We didn’t talk about sex again until shortly before I got married and basically it was only a passing sentence so my mom could give me a book to read. I’m really grateful she did this but I do think that there definitely should have been a better history of conversations.
I think it’s imperative for Christian women to get past their discomfort and take initiative in talking about this important subject. They need to provide information, accountability, and encouragement to both married and single young women, who each have their own respective needs for advice in this area.
I hope that I can have conversations about sex with my daughters early and often, even if it means I have to dig through Teen Magazine and ask them what they think, is that biblical, etc., in order to initiate conversation. But, because sex is so center-stage in our world, I don’t think it will even be that hard to initiate conversation, if I look for opportunities and am unafraid.
I also hope that other godly women in my daughters’ lives will have the courage and grace to have biblically-based conversations with them on this topic too, especially when they are young adults and need truthful messages and accountability.
Some people might say that all sex conversations should be in private. I disagree. Obviously you need to be tactful—and I don’t think it’s appropriate to divulge certain specifics and things your spouse would likely be uncomfortable with. But having said that, especially since we live in a sexualized world, we Christian women need to stop treating openly-sexual conversations as taboo.
The more we talk openly about sex in its biblical context, and in a discreet manner, the more comfortable it will become and the more young women will think of it in a proper light.
Some people might also object to single, unengaged women being present during sex talks. But at an all-female bridal shower, with Christian women present, I submit that this is an excellent forum for young girls to develop a healthy and correct attitude towards human sexuality as God intended it. If girls are old enough to go to a shower, they are old enough to hear about sex. As one friend put it, we live in an age where 11-year-old girls get pregnant.
The bottom line is this: If older, wiser Christian women don’t inform a young woman’s views on sexuality, the world is ready and anxious to do it for them.
October 4, 2007 at 11:34 am
Amy, that was a terrific blog entry and one that, I hope, will receive much needed discussion.
It also reminded me of a rather humorous situation I had at a woman’s Bible study a few years ago. There were several generations represented in the room, the oldest lady being in her 80’s. We were working our way through The Excellent Wife book and for the life of me I do not remember the topic for the evening.
But what I do remember was this very proper and ladylike old widow speaking up in a very authoritative voice, and out of the blue making this statement, “George always wanted to have relations early in the morning so I was always prepared for him then because I knew it was so important to him.”
We were flabbergasted that she made this remarkable statement(especially her granddaughters!)but in retrospect, sharing that spoke volumes coming from a woman who had been married for more than 50 years.
I think one of the reasons Christian women would be hesitant to talk about sex around younger women is that they “don’t want to put any ideas into their heads.” Seriously, I have heard this (some people even advocating not allowing their daughters to even read books or watch any movies that have any romance in them…I am not talking about sex being depicted, I am talking about romance…. because it gives their daughters idea.
But I think that girls already have ideas, even if they aren’t exposed to “the world” and I believe that you are correct, if older Christian women aren’t the ones teaching these things, the world is happy to do so.
BTW, I also think that the best way to teach these things is by example, the sparks they see flying between mom and dad.
October 4, 2007 at 1:54 pm
I think this is an excellent point for discussion. And we should be talking about it with our children. I once read an article put out with our children that was based on polls of our church membership. [a very large number of people]
A strong point that came out is that for those of us that had some ’sexual sin’ in our minds were those that didn’t feel that we had been truly talked to about this subject.
Almost every one said that they heard “sex before marriage” is bad… but nothing else.
I think talking about the physical aspects of dating and how sex gets involved is a discussion we need to have. Naturally there are better ways to go about this and there is no point in being graphic with young children.
I know it would have made a difference in my life.
I never dated or even held hands with a man until my husband. We were overwhelmed with the physical attraction and really didn’t have any idea how to deal with this ‘force!’ All we ever heard was, you’d better not sin!
So we rushed into our marriage.
But I have to say, my Oma (Dutch for Grandmother) did come to me twice, once before I married and once afterwards and did have a heart to heart talk with me about sex, babies and such. At the time I was very embarrassed. As the first Grandchild I had no one else to ask if she did this… but after a few of my cousin’s weddings they have asked me if Oma talked to me. And I could smile and nod and say it was very good advice!
Anyhow… in my church denomination sex is very much the elephant in the room, especially since it is everywhere culturally!
October 4, 2007 at 2:36 pm
As a nurse, I remember older female patients opening up to me about their love lives with their now deceased husbands. It was very precious and tender…and unusual. (?) They deeply missed the physical relationship with them.
I, also, wish that the Christian community wouldn’t imply that sex is a need for just men. Women need it, too. *blush* Christian men need a sex talk, too.
October 4, 2007 at 3:40 pm
I remember being a bride-to-be at one of my wedding showers. An older, married, good friend of mine gave to me a nightgown and robe and said that it should be pretty enough to hang on a bedpost. I can’t tell you how uncomfortable that made me and how I wish that she hadn’t made that comment to me in that public arena. The rest of the ladies giggled, but I wondered if they were giggling at my unease. The shower was with middle-aged women in my church, so they were mostly (probably all) Christians. And yet, I would have appreciated the topic not coming up at all. For my sensitivities, it would have been more appropriate to have been commented on in private.
I did have some conversation with my mother that was rather vague, but it was enough, in connection with the Ed Wheat book that I had for premarital counseling. I really didn’t want details from my mother about her sexual relations with my dad. I suppose that some people can handle the public discussion of sex easily, but I find that it is much easier to have conversations in private. When each of us has a different level of comfort, the public discussion usually will go farther than some would like it to and tends to reveal too much private information in a public way about your own sex life. And at that point, I wonder how my husband (and others’ husbands) would react to having their intimate details stated publicly.
I do have children, and we do talk about opposite sex issues in various ways as the topic comes about through hearing things on the news or newspaper. But each child is a different age and personality and they are not all ready at the same time to hear the full talk.
Perhaps the reason that Christians don’t talk about sex is because of the privateness of it. When people begin to talk about sex with their own spouse, I often feel as if it is just one step away from being in the room with them, witnessing their intimate acts. Public bombardment of messages of sex is quite different than attaching someone to the act itself.
So, I have revealed myself as a Victorian prude, I suppose. But that is simply what I am comfortable with, and to go into a quite public discussion with a blushing bride makes me wonder how she feels. I know that at my shower, I was thankful that it didn’t go further than that one comment, but I wished it hadn’t even gone that far.
I suppose my biggest thought on this would be to consider the sensitivities of all of those involved in a wedding shower. As I said, I was very uncomfortable at my own shower when the topic came up. If everyone knows ahead of time that sexual advice will be given, then they can decide to attend or not, and give advice, or not. They can decide if their children should attend or not. Otherwise, it seems that the advice could be just as well written down or given in a more private venue.
October 4, 2007 at 3:57 pm
My mother was a very dignified, proper Christian lady who did not talk about her feelings much at all. However, one thing I most admired about her was that in spite of all her “reserve” in so many areas of life, talking about sex with me was a topic that she felt free to discuss (at home, in private)! And not in a vulgar, inappropriate way. I always got the impression from her that sex was a good and natural thing, just private and reserved for your husband.
I think, looking back, that my mother felt this was an important topic because of her own mother’s experience. My grandma grew up in the poor rural south where such things were not talked about. As a result, my grandmother was such an innocent teenager that it was easy for her boyfriend (my more worldly grandpa) to take advantage of her. My grandparents “had” to get married, quickly and quietly.
Because of my mother’s example, it has been relatively easy to talk with my daughters about this as a natural part of teaching them about life. I think they have a healthy view of sex. They know that sex is not a “taboo” subject and they can talk to me about anything.
My husband’s parents, however, never told him a thing, either of the technical nature or about their moral expectations. They figured he would pick it up in church (the moral expectations) and the other information from his friends. Not giving my husband guidance in this area was not wise on their part, for many reasons.
October 4, 2007 at 5:15 pm
What a terrific blog! I’m here today by way of Intellectuelle. The subject of sexuality has been on my heart as well. My daughter has recently become engaged, and our conversations have taken a decided turn toward “God’s wedding gift to married couples.” With that in mind, this week, I blogged about “Intimate Issues” a HOT book for Christian couples by Dillow and Pintus. If you have any interest, take a look
here.
October 4, 2007 at 5:28 pm
Its not that I want to encourage graphic discussions between Christians… more that I think it is important to talk about the subject in general.
I definitely don’t want to know what my parents do and don’t do!!!
But for example, when my husband and I were having rough times in the beginning years (we’re nearly 10 years married now) my mother said to me once that I needed to be careful and not use sex as a control over my husband.
In the same conversation she also told me that having a clean house and things in their place did a lot to showing love toward my husband and that to not do those things created a lot of un-needed friction.
That being said… I’m going to give one example where I think it was appropriate to be more graphic.
I married my husband when his sister was in Grade 7. When she married I was her Maid of Honour. My MIL didn’t have any talk with my sis-in-law, and my sis-in-law knew plenty from other sources. But she still had questions and asked them of me.
I was very uncomfortable and could have easily switched gears as my sis-in-law was clearly uncomfortable too.
But I did my best to answer.
Then later on, there were other questions.
And I have questions too.
For example, since sex is the gift of God to married couples isn’t there more to keeping it pure and holy than just keeping sex with in the bonds of marriage?
Doesn’t our attitude toward sex have a huge effect on how we experience our relations?
For example, if we are trained our whole life that sex as society uses it is bad, doesn’t it make it hard then for us to appreciate all that this gift can be?
To me these questions are not ones that I would bring up in a discussion with my friends, churched or non-churched. And I definitely wouldn’t bring them up in a Bible Study Group either…
and yet I don’t find them shameful questions!
October 4, 2007 at 6:34 pm
Interesting discussion.
I can readily identify with what Keebler says and I am also drawn to what others are saying because it makes sense but it is beyond what my experience has been.
I think there are many facets of this discussion that would be good to explore.
How much is too much in a public setting?
I have a funny story about my friend. Her mom gave her the “talk” right before her wedding. She was raised in a Christian home and she was VERY naive.
Her mother told her about the wedding night. Her mother told her to have three things on the nightstand:
kleenex
mints
a damp washcloth
That was about the extent of it.
The way she tells it to me always has me busting a gut.
I need improvement in discussing these things with my children. I am bad at it. I admit it. I don’t want to talk about it with them. At least not the specifics and I don’t know if they want me to talk specifics with them either. By specifics, I mean mechanics and technique, I suppose.
How MUCH do you moms tell your older girls? Do you discuss oral sex, for instance?
I like Debra Evans’ book. I thought about giving that to my daughters to read but not until they are engaged and about to be married.
Do they have to know all the details until then?
We do talk about abortion, homosexuality, premarital sex and the devastating affects on the life of those who do such things. It is always with an attitude of grace and compassion and understanding, especially concerning the lost. We do talk about how sex is only for marriage and that it is good.
When do they have to know more than that? If my daughter came to me and asked questions, I would try and answer them.
I see, in myself, a weird combination of prudishness and openness, I guess.
My son could tell you a funny story about how I approached the conversation with him. He gave him a book (Almost Twelve) and told him to read it and if he had any questions, he could ask his father.
But, I could tell he was not comfortable discussing this topic with me. My husband did a good job discussing this with him but how my son saw it I do not know. I will have to ask him.
Do your older children feel comfortable talking about intimate details concerning sex with you all? I know little children would not have the same discomfort that an older child might just because of maturity.
I do feel comfortable talking to my friends about sex. I never disclose personal things but I do know many women who have never had a…well, you know….and I have given my advice.
God forbid they would have to turn towards Dr. Ruth!
October 4, 2007 at 6:41 pm
*chuckles* I was horrid during my friends bridal showers. I would play a little game of “What so and so would say on their wedding night”. What I would do is write down every exclamation that my friend made while opening a gift and say that is what she is going to say on her husband.
Anyhow, I agree – sex in general is something that is barely discussed whether privately or publicly and it really really needs to be discussed.
My goal as a mother is to try and be able to converse about sex to my girls in a way that makes them understand that it is natural and good but also special and suppose to be with one’s spouse only.
October 4, 2007 at 7:40 pm
As a mom of teenage girls, it is very uncomfortable for my girls and even me for grown women to talk so candidly about sex. I think we need to be very careful about how we talk in front of another woman’s daughter. My philosophy is that they don’t need to know everything until they need to know it. My children are hardly naive. We discuss a lot of issues very frankly BUT there is a point where the Song of Solomon is correct- we should not awaken love/passion before its time.
My oldest daughter works very part-time in a beauty parlor as a receptionist and she is a picture of grace and poise. They sometimes forget that she is in the room and the discussion turns to rather seemy things. Then they remember my daughter and apologize to her and she tells them that she is not offended. The really love her and they have told me that she her presence has really brightened the place and has caused them to clean up their acts a bit. My daughter has also been able to share a bit of her faith with some of the ladies who are going through a divorce or hard times.
I have been in situations where women have gone beyond the pale of what is proper in the company of teen girls.
Just some more thoughts from someone who is still learning in this area and still trying to find the balance when it comes to this issue.
Louisa,
I have played that game at a bridal shower before, too.
I think it is okay amongst friends but I have seen grandmas and aunts blush and mothers rush their daughters out of the room when the results are announced.
October 4, 2007 at 7:54 pm
I think it is great that there are older women in some of your lives that came along and talked to you about these things. Some of your stories are touching. I never had that. I had sex ed in school and I learned a LOT from my friend’s divorced mom who showed us the 101 Positions book when we were in 3rd grade. Those pictures are still etched on my mind! Yikes. I also had Planned Parenthood as a guide.
So, yes, Amy is so right about if they are not getting it from us, then they are getting it from the world.
Karen, I loved your example of the widow and Songbirdy I loved your example of Oma.
I have an idea. Could you guys come over and talk about these things with my daughters!
I would just go to Barnes and Noble and I could come back after you all were done. LOL!
Seriously, Numbers 15 is all about discharge. Read it. Even the priests had to be open about the fact that we were sexual beings. I just studied that chapter and it is very fascinating stuff. After cross-referencing some of the verses, I learned so much.
October 4, 2007 at 9:09 pm
Here’s a thought: Perhaps we don’t discuss it much because we’re so bombarded with the world’s version of sexuality that we feel abnormal. For example, I’d always assumed that sex was easy and painless the first time. That’s what TV, movies, magazines, etc. seem to show. Everyone is doing it, and it’s always wonderful. But that’s just not the way it really is, at least from my experience and those of my friends. But truthfully, I felt like there was something horribly wrong with me because it wasn’t this wonderful, fabulous, easy experience right away, as the world depicts.
Of course, I suppose that’s partially what you’re referring to. We should be sharing that with soon-to-be wives. The world’s version of sex is not reality. In fact, I now laugh when I see a movie in which a couple wakes up and immediately starts being intimate. In movies there is no such thing as morning breath or full bladders.
But it is difficult for some of us to discuss. I really don’t like it when my friends talk to me about their sex lives. While they’re never specific, it’s as someone else stated: it puts faces to the act, and I don’t really want to think of my friends doing that. I know that people have sex; I just don’t want to know about it. And I’m far too private to discuss my own sex life with anyone. But that doesn’t mean that we can’t be informative to new brides without being too specific.
October 4, 2007 at 9:14 pm
I think the younger generations of Christians (at least in my experience) are more open about it, and I think the motive is a pure and righteous one: As we are getting married and learning a Biblical view of sex for ourselves, I think we are attempting to take back what is good and right and lovely and pure from what the world would like us to view it as. God has given sex to US… the married people, so who better to extol it’s “virtues”?
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not at all advocating a disrespectful attitude or discussion on it, but for some, it is a genuine relief to realize that we are in the company of someone who doesn’t require us to be so wary of offending them. At the same time, I do want to be considerate of those who are not comfortable with it, so I do try to do that. Not everyone was introduced to the subject in a healthy and innocent way, and I want to be sensitive to that.
I have absolutely no problem talking to young adult single women about it. Having just been where they are a few years ago, I think sharing certain things with them about WHY sexual purity and boundaries and precautions are something they should value is of utmost importance, and they generally genuinely appreciate it. So while I have no problem discussing this with other’s who are comfortable, I wonder how it will be when my daughters are old enough to have discussions about.
Frankly, after I had already been an adult for quite some time my mother finally “made an effort” by asking if it was something I wanted to discuss. I felt that if it wasn’t something she was willing to discuss for the previous 10 years that she had opportunity to be the first to educate me, then I wouldn’t put her or I through the misery of a forced conversation. And besides, I knew it was something wonderful for marriage, and I didn’t want to adopt her hesitant feelings towards it. The whole experience made me want to have this be an open and EASY topic of conversation with my children… to think of it as GOD thinks of it.
And isn’t that the key???? I don’t want to have any other feelings concerning sex than GOD does, and I have a feeling that He thinks MANY good things towards it, since He is the Creator and Author of this part of us that holds so many wonderful things for us that He INTENDED for us to enjoy. To not do so is to open a gift that someone painstakingly handmade for you and then never using and discovering what it can do!!!
Girls DO need to hear this from us, and I for one want to give them the best and healthiest impression of sexuality that I am given opportunity to do… appropriately and prayerfully of course.
Oh, and whoever already said that the generality that sex is just for men is another notion that doesn’t promote an accurate portayal of the relationship was RIGHT on. This fallacy leaves many women feeling like they must be “dirty” creatures for having a wonderfully healthy sexual appetite.
If I come off a little strong, I apologize. But this is a subject that I feel a bit strongly about. I’m sick and tired of the world and their propoganda stealing what is “good and pure and lovely”… I want the TRUTH back in the mainstream attitudes about sex.
October 4, 2007 at 10:33 pm
Wow, this topic sure is difficult for a lot of people. Honestly, I have NEVER had a talk about sex with my mother. I will be 29 next month and am single, and I hear most of my positive views of sex from my married (younger) sisters and other married friends.
A dear friend of mine, who is only a few years older, but has been married for 10 or 11 years in passing one time said, “I have one thing to say on this topic: organic coconut oil.” My best friend and I laughed, but it was true. I have have had other younger married friends tell me that they were the ones to tell their sisters and girlfriends about things like lubricants and what it was like for the first time.
In my family my mother has a “sexual history” that has often been an obstacle to any kind of open discussion about sex in our family. I am single and my greatest struggle is to tame my sex drive until it has a legitimate outlet. My father and I have had discussions about how difficult this is for me, but I can’t say anything to my mother or she acts like I am going to go out and sleep with the next guy who smiles at me! I am still a virgin and have ended 4 dating relationships because I would not get physical.
So, I think that the issue is like Alisa says: Truth is just not part of the discussion and with immorality and debauchery setting the tone for what sex is, it is hard to compete.
One word about naive virgins: I would have appreciated hearing older godly women discuss sex in a more open way when I was a teenager. Even though I never dated and was guarded against many outside influences, sex is graphically portrayed in the Bible and I had my own physical desires to deal with and all that I thought was that sex was bad and should be avoided at all costs. There was nothing of the beauty of God’s gift or the joy that sex is in marriage. You don’t have to be graphic about the discussion, but I think some affirmations about the joys of a pure committed relationship between husband and wife would have encouraged me and helped me to deal with often overwhelming desire.
Finally, I had a discussion a year or two ago with my college pastor and his wife and really expressed my pain and difficulty over the fact that the goodness and joy of sex God’s way is rarely discussed with teenagers or older singles. I was at a point where I was seriously questioning why I should remain pure and wait. I knew how to avoid diseases and pregnancy and I was tired of fighting myself and my desires 28 out of 30 days a month. The lack of positive discussion about sex, and about the struggles of being single and making the transition to marriage really are not addressed in a pure in godly way and the men and women in the church are suffering for the neglect.
October 4, 2007 at 10:49 pm
I’m very thankful I had a mom who talked with me openly about sex. She had a mom who thought sex was a dirty thing and only appropriate for planned procreation. My mom has spent much of her married life putting that influence behind her and it was important to her that I be given tools to avoid sexual sin and to enjoy marital sex. She was successful and I am blessed.
As to concerns about embarrassing daughters, I was embarrassed at times. In my teens I stopped my mom from continuing a “sex talk.” But by starting that discussion I knew I could talk with her and that she would answer my questions. Later when I was older, I had a pretty frank discussion with her after my first pelvic exam. I was pretty certain sex was not for me if it was anything like that and she was great about both allaying my fears and being frank about discomfort on my wedding night.
I was relatively sheltered and homeschooled but peers were discussing sex around me from the time I was 11. A lot of them had bad information. As to fears about “not awakening love until it is time” most of my female friends weren’t horribly aroused by information. I certainly was not. I thought the whole thing was really yucky until my first kiss. That’s what really awakens passion for most females. And our daughters need to know that. And be prepared.
I’m close to a large family where the parents were uncomfortable discussing sex with their kids. They assumed that they knew it was wrong before marriage and that they would wait. Unfortunately, this has resulted in outside information and the majority of their children (some still in their teens) being sexually involved prior to marriage.
Scripture is full of rather earthy stories about sex. Judah’s three sons and daughter-in-law, Bathsheba bathing, Lot and his daughters. If the Bible doesn’t treat sex as a taboo subject, maybe neither should we.
October 4, 2007 at 11:31 pm
Someone’s comment about oral sex reminded me of a very real moment I had when I was in my second year of university.
I taught a group of 13 year old girls at my church. They were the oldest of a club for girls. Our material covered things like dating, responsibility, tv watching, etc.
On the topic of dating, the girls became very curious and open to me. I think because I was younger.
Note, we met next to the Council Room and on the same night that the Elder’s of our church held their meeting in that room. Divided by only an accordion door.
One girl stated that she had Oral Sex several times.
I just about fell off my chair in shock!
I told her I highly doubted that but what exactly was Oral Sex. She was quite embarrassed but proceeded to describe deep kissing on the mouth.
I didn’t feel that it was my place to give her a better definition, but I did tell her that if she went home that night and told her parents she had oral sex with a boy… She’d likely be grounded until she was 56.
If however she went home and said she french kissed a boy, she’d likely only be grounded until she was 19.
But I do know, out of this conversation I tried to make it clear to the girls that there is a natural progression to physical contact. That one thing will want you to desire the next. That often it is easier for a girl to walk away than it is for a boy. That you have to draw your boundary lines very specifically and while you are able to think with something other than your passion. And that I felt it was best to leave off the physical stuff until they were much older.
I had many discussions with the Head Counsellor about this group. We debated talking to the parents and did mention that the topic was being discussed in a letter to the parents. But after discussion with the Pastor, we felt that since the girls were asking the questions they had the right to the answers. Again, not graphic answers but responses respecting their age and right to knowledge.
Each time I always ended with this disclaimer, “This is what I’ve understood and is my opinion of the matter based on what I’ve studied in the Bible. You should talk to your parents. I will not help you argue with your parents about an issue discussed here because I am not more right than they!”
It’s kind of funny think about this now because it just occurred to me that this happened nearly 15 years ago! I wonder where those girls are now and if those talks were for the good or not!
October 5, 2007 at 1:02 am
Oh my. I could say alot about this. Let me be perfectly honest and say I have a colored past. And, I grew up in a Christian home. But it was a quiet-don’t-talk-about-serious-stuff Christian home. I never had any talks with my parents about anythiing.
So, I did what most uninformed, impressionable girls would do. I started sleeping with men because I thought that is what you did to get a guy to LOVE you. (which is WRONG on so many levels, but this is how a teenage brain works). Even 20 years ago we were already bombarded with sexual innuendo and the media, and now it is MUCH WORSE then back then.
So, my take?
We need to teach our daughters that when they sleep with someone other than their husband before marriage they are literally giving pieces of their heart away. For girls, sexual sin seems to be so much deeper and harder to overcome. Let me tell you, many, many years later I have finally been released from my guilt but it took alot of time. And the “christian” community didn’t help much because it was pretty much “this is a sin and we don’t discuss it so shut up” type of dealing with it.
Now, on to my other advice. Like someone said above, we need to let girls/women know that sex isn’t just for men. Married women CAN have a huge desire and a wonderful sex life. I am amazed at how many of my Christian (and non Christian) friends who are miserable in the bedroom. They have been fed a lie that sex is for men and for women it is a chore. WRONG!!!! After I was able to overcome my guilt from sexual sin, I was released to have an AWESOME sex life with my husband.
I will be very honest and open with all three of my kids, but especially my girls. I want them to understand that it is a huge heart issue and not just a sin.
I could go on, but well…my fingers are tired of typing!
October 5, 2007 at 2:38 am
Like many here, my mother was terrified to discuss sex with me and basically assumed that I already knew everything that I needed to know. I went off to nursing school at 17 where my first class was materinty and delivery, so I guess she left the rest of the task up to the Sisters of Mercy!
While I was engaged, I volunteered at the Christian School that I’d attended. I was very grateful for the advice that the (woman) principal (who had once been my 8th grade teacher) offered to me during that time. She recommended several books and resources to me, providing very needed and valuable information that my own mother was unable to offer to me. Harley’s “His Needs, Her Needs” became my favorite which I still recommend to others.
I’m so grateful that God unexpectedly provided “Mrs. B” to me to offer what my own family lacked. Her example has given me an excellent example and alternate role model at an ideal time in my life.
October 5, 2007 at 2:41 am
e-Mom,
Your website is wonderful, BTW. Your presentation is lovely and tasteful. I wish I had seen this 15 years ago.
October 5, 2007 at 3:58 am
In addition to more overall resources about sex for women, I think there should be more information available that is tailored to the various life stages. I am 23 and unmarried with no prospects in sight, as of right now. Upon graduating from college about a year ago, I have embarked upon a mission to study and learn all I can about godly womanhood, and how it looks at each stage of life. I’ve been devouring books about pregnancy, childbirth, motherhood, marriage, relationships, menopause and geriatric issues, etc., and forming wonderful friendships with women of all ages, who are helping to guide me, from chats with my 30-something married coworkers, to more serious discussions with my grandmother. All the Christian resources I’ve encountered about female sexuality seem to have been made for women in one of three camps: the young girl on the threshold of puberty, the teenager navigating the modern dating scene, or the woman mere weeks away from her wedding. I don’t fit into any of those categories, so I’ve done my best to cobble together resources from bits and pieces here and there. I don’t think it’s fair to assume that the physically mature, but still single woman, has the same needs for guidance as a 16-year-old. I imagine it must be even more frustrating for singles older than myself. I’m not even sure what a good resource for someone like me would look like, because I haven’t seen anything like it yet.
I have a very honest and open relationship with my mother, and she and my father in turn have a very “sparks flying” relationship. I know he thinks she’s beautiful and attractive after almost 30 years of marriage, and I will be very happy if I can have a marriage like their’s. I remember talks with my mom during my teen years about how much she enjoyed those first few years of marriage, before I was born (not that she didn’t enjoy the time after I came along), and discovering how to be a wife.
Finally, I’m sure many, many people will disagree, but I’ve found “Our Bodies, Ourselves,” to be one of the best, most honest and comprehensive resources for me in this area. While it contains a great deal of material that I do not agree with, I believe parts have proven very useful. One section in particular talks about the importance of a strong erotic bond between husband and wife, and what a vital role that plays in a healthy marriage. The accompanying photo shows a family portrait – a couple and their five or six children, posing seated on a staircase, with Mom and Dad holding hands and sneaking a kiss over their oldest’s head. It was taken in the 1970s and everyone has enormous hair. Another section discusses various ways a woman’s sexuality evolves after she becomes a mother, and how this may affect her relationship with her husband. Our culture seems to portray motherhood and sexuality as mutually exclusive, as evidenced by such things as intolerance of public breastfeeding while promoting images of sexualized breasts. My mom got the book for me when I was 18, and at an age when I could separate the valuable information from the not-so. I pulled it out and referred to it just last week as I was compiling a list of questions for my doctor. If an explicitly Christian resource containing the depth and scope of this book existed, that would be great.
October 5, 2007 at 4:25 am
KateinDC,
You mention a lack of resources for “godly womanhood” when I wonder if not everything about womanhood is expressly “godly.” This language gives us expectation of things that may not really be there. Maybe womanhood, in some aspects is just womanhood… Somethings about life are just dull and banal, and that doesn’t necessarily mean that they aren’t glorifying to God. I’m not that big of a romantic, so that concept might not float for some people. Some things (but not all) just are what they are.
Although there are those who would say that I’ve been corrupted by college, I think it’s great that you were able to evauate “Our Bodies, Ourselves” and find value in it. It’s my criticism of those who hide from secular culture and shelter their older children from it that they don’t learn the discernment skills needed to survive and remain Christian. Your parents did their jobs well if you can take a secular work and evaluate it, identifying where your underlying beliefs differ from the author’s. Paul said that we could pick up serpents and scorpions, didn’t he? Isn’t it our hope as Chistians and a parent’s hope for their children that we all might be prepared to walk through the fire and not be burned? Good Christian training and the Word hidden in our hearts had best be sufficient for the challenges of life, espeically the idealistic ones.
October 5, 2007 at 4:53 am
KateinDC,
It’s been quite a while since I read either, so I’m not sure if they have the specifics you are looking for, but Every Woman’s Battle and maybe even Every Woman’s Marriage by Shannon Etheridge might come close.
October 5, 2007 at 1:06 pm
What a great discussion! My mom had a few talks with me that I remember, one explaining the basic facts after a friend showed us her doctor dad’s anatomy books…and I remember discussing the need for an OBGYN exam a few years later with mom and an older friend of ours who was about to get married. I mostly learned the rest from friends and books and youth group talks, but I was grateful for Tommy Nelson’s Song of Solomon study in college, which put it all into perspective and actually make me look forward to “the right time.”
The pastor who married my husband and me discussed sex during counseling, and to this day I am grateful for he and his wife
s advice: “We’ve been married almost 25 years. Trust us, it gets better with practice…” with them grinning at each other and stealing sly glances. At least I knew it might start difficultly, but it could only get better with time!
They also recommended Tim & Beverly LaHaye’s “The Act of Marriage,” which I greatly appreciated (there are so many things we women never discuss with each other) and passed along to my sister-in-law when she got married a few years ago. (I’m not so much on his view of eschatology but he and his wife are great on marital relations!) I do offer this caveat that my pastor told us– don’t read that book until a month or a few weeks before the wedding (especially the guys) or it can become a source of temptation. We were glad we did this– we jokingly called it our “love bible” and took it on the honeymoon as a reference…
You know, I’ve been to so many showers and I think it really depends on the atmosphere and those present. At a more formal shower, with grandmothers and relatives (possibly young relatives) and other “strangers” it might not be an appropriate discussion. But at a shower or bachelorette party with mostly Christian friends (it could be a great witness to the joy in waiting for marriage to any non-Christian friends present) where there is an opportunity to offer advice, I think it would be greatly beneficial!
I recently attended an (innocent) bachelorette party for a sweet Christian friend and during the advice time some of us “old married folk” gave her tidbits of wisdom…I shared what we were told during counseling. Other times, if I am good friends with the bride, I might invite her over for a cup of tea and have a frank discussion shortly before the wedding. You just have to gauge each situation and find out what makes the bride comfortable.
Before I was married, I was embarrased by any discussion and refused my (Christian) friends’ offer of a limgerie shower, though we did have a “pamper the bride” party with a diverse group of Christian women who had influenced me growing up and I appreciated their advice and wisdom. I wonder if we had made it a lingerie shower if there would have been more discussion of intimate topics? I know I certainly wouldn’t have had to buy as many “nice nightclothes”– most of the lingerie showers I’ve been to are tame and the gifts usually just include some comfy PJ’s and a couple of silky things…though I think every bride should have a special “wedding night” attire prepared to please their husband. My gown was given to me by my grandmother with the instruction to “dress nicely” for my husband, and that meant a lot, coming from her who was silent on the subject most of the time. She passed away shortly before our wedding, or I would have expressed to her more how much I really appreciated her gift.
October 7, 2007 at 1:16 am
I think a lot of honesty about sex would benefit both Christians and non-Christians alike. For example, while (as articulated by many here) the Christian party line of “Men are about sex! Women are about love!” seems to exclude all possibility of a female sex drive, the world tells you that you have to be having fabulous, incredibly fulfilling sex all the time and if you aren’t having sex a certain number of times per week and don’t think about it a certain number of times a day, there’s something wrong. Both perspectives really leave out the complexities of what happens over the course of a relationship. Some of us who have nursed (for example) have hormones that make fulfilling our marital duties something we have done because we want to please our partner and not necessarily because it’s what we want. And so forth. Furthermore, along with the first Christian party line about sex, I grew up hearing, “Sex is an incredible gift from God for married people! It’s so great in marriage! Transcendent! One flesh!” and so forth helps further those performance anxieties for those for whom sex is more like a nice plate of macaroni and cheese rather than an amazing spiritual experience every time. It’s all very confusing, but in my own experience, shared here essentially anonymously, sex waxes, wanes, and waxes again in the relationship. I guess the important thing is for one of the couple not to “deprive” the other, as Paul said, and for the other person not to be a bully about it.
October 7, 2007 at 4:01 am
I think often this kind of thing isn’t brought up at the shower because sex is so private. It’s like the diseases that our grandmothers wouldn’t say out loud, but would instead whisper under their breath.
For my Christian girlfriends, I always make sure I give them some advice for the first night on how to make it more comfortable. But I have to know a friend really well before I’m willing to go beyond that. It’s their intimate life with their husband, after all. I’ll have to give it more thought, now though.
I think we have got to think about the way we talk about sex with our kids, though. I can’t tell you how many girlfriends I’ve had who have found the transition from “sex is a sin” to “sex is good, you should do it with your husband frequently”.
October 7, 2007 at 4:36 am
Anne,
Thank you for your insightful post! I went to your blog and I was so blessed. We have much the same story. I have the same sort of feelings on talking about sex with others.
Sarah,
Thank you for sharing those thoughts! You really hit some good advice that I wish I had known! It is very hard to transition from the “sex is naughty” to “sex is good” and I found it even harder for me and I have a “past” (you would think that my “past” would make it easier?). I became a Christian when I was almost 24 and I married when I was 25. God made all things new and I can attest to the fact that God can wipe out the deepest stain of sin. On my wedding night it was very hard for me to make that transition. So, maybe for women like me who have done some living before coming to Christ, this sort of advice would be a good thing to help them.
Also, it seems like people shoot themselves in the foot when they basically say that sex is for the man. There are a LOT of women with a very strong sex drive and these women often feel very naughty and freakish when they hear these sorts of things. I know many women who would like to have MORE sex but their husbands are too tired and it is painful for them and they are embarrassed to talk about such things because they are told it is the other way around.
Great advice about the waxes/wanes and the “do not deprive and don’t be a bully”!! The verses in the Bible are given for US to apply to our own lives but they are not given to us to use as an assault weapon to force/guilt our spouses into giving us what we want.
My husband was brought up Jewish so he learned about sex from the Rabbi. Young Jewish men are taught from the Song of Solomon.
That book has a LOT in it that makes one a very good lover if they take that book’s advice.
October 8, 2007 at 7:02 am
First, some advice I received from my grandma in the week before my wedding:
“Nighties are for keeping under your pillow in case of a fire.”
Secondly, and more seriously: The discussion has edged around resources, but what about resources for sexual problems or issues for the married? I’m having a tough time finding resources there, and would appreciate Christian sources before having to go to secular sources. Recommendations would be great!
October 8, 2007 at 12:48 pm
Nighties are also for wearing around the house in the evening, after the kids are growm and gone and it’s just you and your husband.;)
Believe it or not, I saw a site awhile back, where women were talking about modest sleepwear — floor length, high-necked, and long sleeved, with a headcovering to boot. One woman mentioned how nice it was of her husband to be understanding of the fact that even in private, she only uncovered her face and her hands, out of devotion to God and Mary.
That woman should have become a nun, not a wife.
October 8, 2007 at 6:47 pm
I have so many mixed feelings after reading this blog entry.
I am somewhat at a loss, trying to guess precisely what specific counsel it is that is needed. Are there young women receiving no instruction and counsel before marriage?
One thing that stands out in my mind as something that would have been nice to know ahead of time in my life, is knowledge of the recovery period after childbirth – that it’s normal and it isn’t instant. It wasn’t until I was six or seven months pregnant the first time that I first heard anything about it. It was soon enough for practical purposes but absolutely news to me on the whole, and I felt a bit like this was something women should know before then.
In terms of sex itself, I personally learned a great deal from books, before I was married and after, but within the context of Christian family life. Of course I learned from actual practical experience when married. And I learned from other women after I was married – some in childbirth and breastfeeding groups, where the subject would arise naturally. But I would also say I was blessed to start with a sound sense of sex in marriage as a good thing. And I don’t know that we had any of the issues in our early marriage that many talk about.
Having sat through my share of dorm-room conversations on the subject, I would hazard to say that attitudes about sex in marriage are largely determined when you are younger. If your attitude was healthy coming into marriage, then the learning that comes with time and practice is rather easy. If someone’s attitude was unhealthy, for whatever reason, then you are talking advice and possible counseling.
Today’s generation is not entirely peopled with chaste young men and women. Some of them enter marriage already intimate with their spouses. The counsel that would be helpful for them is entirely different for what would be helpful for an innocent, chaste bride.
I am still not comfortable thinking that the bridal shower is the place for that conversation. I attended a shower yesterday for my 41yo SIL… many many older women [than both of us] there. But I don’t believe I would have come, with my two young daughters, if I anticipated the shower leading to talk about sex in marriage. Too many of us there only met that day. For many families the wedding shower is the first chance for women of both families to meet and somehow ’sex’ doesn’t seem like the right ice-breaker.
We do indeed need more circumstances that permit younger woman to be in the company of older women though, where there can be opportunities for conversations to happen in more personal moments.
I too read The Act of Marriage when it came out, and other books by the LaHayes; I read Christian marriage primers from way back when; I read church literature on the subject; for good or ill, I paged through a few PlayGirl magazines in college dorms and wondered what the big draw was; did read Our Bodies, Ourselves and took what was useful; listened to whatever audio tapes Focus on the Family had to offer on marriage and family life [before marriage]; read much of the writings of Gary Smalley when they first came out; was loaned the audio tapes and book by Dr Ed Wheat after we had been married for quite some time; and in the last several years we attended the “Love and Respect” conference of Dr Eggerich, which I HIGHLY recommend for engaged and married couples; the writings of Shaunti Feldhahn are also some of the best I’ve seen [For Women Only and For Men Only]. Each resource had something to offer. For today’s couples I would recommend the Love & Respect materials and Shaunti Feldhahn’s books.
October 10, 2007 at 3:33 am
[...] What Wasn’t Said [...]
October 10, 2007 at 11:51 am
Many of you remark that “a bridal shower isn’t the place for a conversation about sex.” Then when would you mention it, except in quiet, private conversations? Those conversations are times for specifics and questions. A bridal shower, on the other hand, is a fitting public event for the general mention of sex.
Notice I say “mention” of sex. There’s a difference between an older woman advising the bride, “Sometimes you’ll give yourself to your husband out of ministry, not out of passion. But other nights make up for it,” and, “Woo-hoo, girl! Just wait till he sticks his thing in you!” Small girls overhearing the first comment won’t understand what’s being said, but can see the smiles and nods and store it away for later. She’s just had a little education in proper sex.
And the bride will blush something awful and somebody will think that it shouldn’t have been said, but I think that’s part of the problem. Sex is private, but not secret. As long as it’s dealt with in a discreet manner, it SHOULD be acknowledged and talked about. It’s part of being a woman. Long before there were books and videos and resources, there was a community of women.
Obviously, depending on the setting, the conversation may not turn in that direction. But when older women are specifically giving advice, there’s nothing wrong with including sex in that discussion. As Amy said, it’s not like the world is quiet about it.
– SJ
October 10, 2007 at 1:47 pm
I like that distinction and I think it is a very good one.
I also think that if we can accept that talk like this should happen it will open us for the other kind of discussion too.
My college room mates father was a minister and she and her sisters said that their father was known to tell women to keep Harlequin romances handy to help prepare themselves for the times when they knew their husbands were going to want sex but they didn’t.
Naturally this wasn’t an every day comment but all of the girls had heard of their father talk about Harlequins in this way.
Now I disagree with that as I find they give very unrealistic expectations to a new bride, I can understand his point for saying this. And his daughters (6 of them) understood that their father was telling them, indirectly, that there are going to be times when their desires and their husband’s desires won’t match.
Reading over that it doesn’t come out the way it was, it isn’t my story and I know for a fact all of the daughters felt their Dad did this gracefully and were thankful he mentioned things like this around them.
Anyhow, before I dig myself further into saying this the wrong way…
There are going to be people that don’t have family to tell them things like that. My husband’s family is one. His parents didn’t tell the children a thing and assumed that they would learn it in school. This has made for some very interesting times.
Tasteful and tactful conversation, yes. Not talking about this makes for all sorts of issues!
October 10, 2007 at 2:27 pm
The key is that it starts now! If you’re a parent, discussion about sex should be natural and normal and celebratory in the context for which it was created. Our children will feel comfortable talking to us about sex if we always discuss it comfortably!
I also think it can be discussed publicly with appropriate discretion. Women are to be available to one another.
October 14, 2007 at 8:42 pm
Oh wow, what a terrific discussion! I think that it needs to be discussed by Christians. I was in a really interesting Sunday school class the other day where the teacher said that he thinks that perhaps Christians over-idealization of the Victorian period is one of the stumbling blocks to communicating a proper view of sexuality to young people. They’re totally going to hear about it–I “knew” stuff, and I grew up as a very sheltered homeschooler. I don’t know if I would have been comfortable with explicit sex conversations with my mom–she tends to be maudlin about such things–but I’m really thankful for the married young women in my life who explained things in a practical, non-dramatic sort of way.
I think if the next generation coming up is going to accept a Biblical view of sexuality, they need to know that Christians think sex is great. It’s so great that it’s reserved for a husband/wife relationship. I think there are definitely ways that we can critique popular culture’s metaphors for sexuality (sex as a game, score with lots of partners, for example) that can help highlight the fact that God has a higher purpose for sex.
It’s really sad when the importance of sex is downplayed in Christian circles, and it can be really harmful. I hope she got over when she got married, but I talked to a younger girl when she was engaged (she came out of a courtship model), and they had decided not to kiss until they were married. It’s great that they were committed to purity, but in that commitment, she undervalued the importance (an importance that God puts on it as well!) of physical relationships in marriage. She said something like, “I don’t see the importance of kissing and all that stuff. I’d rather just have a conversation.” I tried to talk with her about the importance of physical expressions of love in marriage, and I hope that through her time as a wife she’s understood better, but it seems like it could be really hurtful to a man trying to express love physically for a wife to have that attitude. Not to mention that sex is intended to be great for the wife, too.
Oh, and one more thing, I know this is getting long! One of the best pieces of advice about sex we were given was from our pastor, and it wasn’t explicit at all, and it’s put things in perspective many times. He just said that sex is like learning a musical instrument. The first time you sit down to the piano, you’re not going to be able to play a Beethoven sonata. But with practice and over time, you can make beautiful music.
October 15, 2007 at 4:29 pm
Yet another Rebecca weighs in…
At the church where I was married, it was the tradition for some of the “older” women to embarrass the brides-to-be with gifts of tacky lingerie that were usually purchased at Fredericks of Hollywood (is that place still around?) The poor brides-to-be were tormented into holding up these ridiculous flimsy bits of see-through material, and this would provoke all sorts of giggles, laughter, “woo-hoo”, and joking comments.
Several friends of mine had been so mortified at attending these showers that they made entirely different plans for their own. One held a co-ed shower in a park and asked for practical household gifts. The groom-to-be, beforehand, casually mentioned to a number of the husbands that he was sure no one was going to attempt to humiliate his sweetheart in front of a bunch of men at a park. Everyone got the message.
By the time I had my shower, the trend had shifted away from “marriage is all about sex — the more wild and uninhibited the better!!” showers to ones that were far more tasteful and reflected, IMO, a much healthier and more realistic view of marriage.
I’m not sure that showers are really the place for sex talks, although I know that it is commonplace to bring up the topic. But then, I tend to prefer showers that are mainly about showering the bride with gifts and celebrating this important transition in her life. Given the fact that showers can involve people with a variety of relationships to the bride-to-be and even groom-to-be (friends, relatives, co-workers, friends and relatives of the groom-to-be, etc.) I can think of all sorts of showers I’ve attended where it would have been awkward and even inappropriate to be dispensing sex advice, even couched in genteel, discreet terms. Just because the person bringing it up might give godly and well-worded advice doesn’t mean that someone else there might feel, since the topic of sex has been brought up for discussion, that they can offer an alternative perspective.
A number of my friends and relative have either had to endure some sort of horrid, scary advice from an elderly aunt (“It will be the worst night of your life, dearie, but we all survived it”) or way too much TMI in the form of advice (“It’s important to be adventurous, my dear. My husband’s favorite sexual position is…”)
I’m really thankful that, aside from jokes about having lots of babies, no one felt a need to bring up sex as a topic of discussion at my bridal shower!
October 28, 2007 at 1:06 am
These are great ideas! My pastor’s wife talked to me about sex just after my honeymoon. Her advice was so encouraging it made me plan on giving all my friends a sex talk before they were married.
Thanks for broaching this subject!
November 7, 2007 at 10:01 pm
I’m kind of opposed to sex talk at bridal showers, but I do think there should be sex talk before a wedding. It’s just that what a bride-to-be needs to know is so individualized that I think it’s better dealt with in more individualized settings. A Christian woman who was sexually abused can be really wounded by advice that would be very helpful to someone without that background (and in my experience the sexually abused will not have told most people who attend their bridal shower); a woman who is no longer a virgin (or who wasn’t when she became a Christian) may not want to make that fact public but may still feel shamed by advice that assumes she has no experience, etc.
I think one of the reasons it can be hard to give sexual advice is that our experiences are so different. Sex is so personal that it can be extremely individual – as has been mentioned, not everyone is a “candle light or fireworks” kind of person; for some people, sex is more like mac and cheese and they like it that way, thanks.
That is one problem I have had with some of the Christian sex manuals I’ve read (admittedly we’re talking some twenty years back) – they seemed to assume all women respond one way, all men another, and mutual orgasm should be the goal for every married couple. Women and men who don’t fit the norms start to think they’re strange, and couples who have a perfectly good sex life get all fussed for their lack of mutual orgasm – or work hard to achieve the supposedly important goal and find the effort uncomfortable and, should they achieve the goal, the goal pretty pointless.
But I say this as someone who most enjoys what we discover and achieve together, and as one of a couple that values the symbolism created through sex combined with the relationship as much as the physical aspects; your milage may vary. I’ve had a lot of sexual conversations with Christian women, and my mother was determined to talk about sex with her children (since her mother told her NOTHING, ever), and had excellent attitudes about sex in general, so while I recognize it as important and necessary I’m not convinced it has to be a structured part of an event like a shower.
Plus my maid of honor wasn’t Christian and would have found that sort of thing rather hard to deal with, heh. She had no problem talking about sex (in private conversation with those who were comfortable with it), but talking about sex from religious perspective – or in front of her mother, the co-hostess – was something else again. She did, however, think it part of her duties as MoH to make sure I knew what I needed to know, particularly since she knew I was a virgin. While our philosophies on the subject couldn’t have been more different, she wanted to be sure I knew about some of the physical details and that I wasn’t “flying on romance fantasies and ready for a crash.”
I do think there should be someone available for the bride-to-be to consult – ideally, more than one someone – I just don’t think it should be in the context of the bridal shower.
And I think the Christian church should discuss sex more in less personal terms – my eldest (14) and I are going through the Bible together, which gives you many opportunities for discussing sex and God’s attitudes about it and how it can go wrong.
Although some of that is my skewed perspective of things – while I presented the more standard interpretations, I’ve always suspected God killed Onan because Onan was sexually abusing Tamar (she clearly was desperate for a child and I suspect she was shocked and horrified and hurt by him using her for sex but refusing her what she was there for, if you will), so talking about that (and the Leverite laws versus “wasting his seed,” the two more historically common explanations for why Onan displeased God) becomes a discussion on God’s attitudes toward sex and love.
November 21, 2007 at 12:44 am
I didn’t have much of an education from my family myself, and when I was facing marriage, I had to answer these questions for myself.
A few books later and a particular website later, I learned a lot.
The website has been a big help.
http://themarriagebed.com/ (click on discussion/forum topics)
December 1, 2007 at 4:29 am
Hi there, Amy! Ok, a few things to say about this topic. I’ll be honest: I don’t think it’s a big deal to mention sex in a shower. Maybe I’m more modern, but don’t most women nowadays know enough about sex? I certainly do, and frankly, if an older woman tried to give me anything resembling sex advice (ESPECIALLY at my own bridal shower amidst other women), I’d consider it patronizing and presumptious. I am actually VERY candid and open about the topic of sex in general, but when it comes to an individual couple’s sex life (or future sex-life), I’m very hushed up because it’s such a private thing. I’m the kind who would be tempted to slap a person if they asked whether I’m a virgin, because it’s none of their business! I don’t think it’d be appropriate to bring this up at a shower, frankly. In fact, I don’t know what the general practice is at showers, but before my own takes place, I’m going to mention in the invitations that I don’t wish to receive any lingerie as a gift; once again, too personal, and I can’t imagine trying to seduce my husband in something that one of my friends picked out!
Thanks for posting this article
December 5, 2007 at 12:51 am
I wish someone would have had a frank discusssion with me about sex prior to getting married. I bought into the idea that because we waited for marriage, everything would be great. Instead, our weddding night was awful and it took several days to consumate our marriage. I’m happy to say, two years later, we have a good love life, but I wish someone would have at least hinted that such things take work!
December 5, 2007 at 2:55 am
Same here, Kellie. Took me and my husband 3 weeks to consumate our marriage. My honeymoon was a nightmare.
4 years later and we’re just fine.
December 5, 2007 at 11:22 pm
I am new to this post. I am an older single, a christian for many years and a virgin. While I have had my struggles with lustfull thinking and actions I over come primarily by studying and observing healthy marraiges and courtships and reminding myself when I see bad ones that I don’t want to end up like that. I am not at all in favor of marrying young because of fear of sexual immorality. We are NOT dogs and we have self control.
I especially like studying the Song of Solomon. The book ‘Real Sex’ by Lauren Winner is very good and refreshingly honest. Sadly any sexual activity outside of what Jesus approves of can cause damage to the soul. Reading about sexual addiction and its effects can also bring alot of understanding and might very well be part of the reason these topics are not discussed more openly.
I think many men and women are not educated in these areas so they don’t know how to ‘fix’ problems when they arise. As much as I respect the older women teaching the younger women, in our culture today some of this should be dealt with by a professional counselor and NOT many pastors.
For those with no experience don’t be ashamed thats the way its supposed to be and figuring it out is half the fun. Sex is important but its not everything. We need to be constantly on guard to throw alot out because of what our culture tells us.
January 4, 2008 at 5:47 pm
Great discussion and I hope my question won’t get lost as the discussion took place a while ago.
Someone asked about resources for when things don’t go “quite right” with regards to husband-wife relations. I’d like to re-ask the question.
I grew up in a very legalistic church environment and it didn’t help things that we were involved in a patriarchal church for a number of years.
Here’s my dilemma and I know I’m not alone in this as I recently finally shared with my best friend from childhood and she has pretty much the same problem. But neither of us had a solution.
What do you do when your husband’s desire far and away outstrips your own? I’m serious. My husband works from home and would literally be happy morning and night. And other times just for fun. We usually just settle for one or the other.
But (I’m hoping I’m not being too indelicate here), I’d be happy with once a week!
For a long time I felt very guilty. After all he *needs* it. And I’m supposed to be submissive. Not neglect the marriage bed. My body is his body. And so on.
And if you read the Pearls, not only am I supposed to be ready, I’m supposed to be happy and willing!
I have to share here that I was abused in the manner as a child, but can that STILL be hanging on after 17 years of marriage? If so, how in heaven’s name can I *fix* it?
I am really tired of there constantly being this strain between us. I wonder, why can’t my husband see that sometimes I just need him – but I don’t want that aspect. Where do my needs come into play?
Why am I having this battle? Constantly??
Ugh.
Okay, now I’ve really shared my deepest darkest secret.
But, has anyone else ever struggled with this? Just please don’t tell me that the solution is to submit joyfully and then eventually my heart’s desires will change. 17 years and it still hasn’t happened.
Thanks.
January 6, 2008 at 3:23 pm
Anon,while I have never been married and never had intercourse, every day doesn’t sound great to me either.( and I think enough about sex as it is !! ) Regarding your past abuse depending on the severity it may have something to do with it but I feel like I want to lean in the direction to say that might not be the case. It sounds like your husband has the issue. I guess I would help him curb whatever stimulus he is getting if any other than from you.Talk from guys at work, movies etc. Heaven forbid if anything ever happened to you and your husband found himself single again he is gonna be one hurting individual.
January 6, 2008 at 3:36 pm
I would also look at other areas of his life and yours…food,exercise,financial management,bible reading,prayer etc. Anything that requires discipline of heart and mind and body. How do you and he fare in all those areas? ( Not that you should answer here I am just trying to think of other areas to look at also.) :>)
January 8, 2008 at 12:00 am
I agree with Sally. I would take a spiritual inventory and look at all the areas of your lives that could be fueling this “need”. Is there any pornography involved? Sometimes when men are involved in porn, they go into hyper-drive because nothing is satisfying and their “addiction” takes over. They have to have more sex because it is no longer satisfying because porn is based on fantasy. Has he always been like this? Or is this a new thing? I have had quite a few friends who have shared this kind of thing with me and they found out later that their husband had been addicted to pornography. There are some good Christian websites out there that deal with the subject of porn addiction, maybe you can email them your question?
Here is a good website:
http://www.settingcaptivesfree.com/home/
And maybe going to visit a counselor in order to talk about these issues would help?
Does he consider your “needs”? Is there compromise on both of your parts? Is there give and take on both parts? Or is there always one person giving and the other taking?
I will pray for your situation tonight. I feel like I totally have no wisdom in how to help you.
January 8, 2008 at 3:39 am
Anon, after age 45 men’s sex drive starts to slow down a bit, and usually a woman’s sex drive begins to increase at about that same time.
Also, there are a number of hormonal conditions that might underlie your lack of interest in sex. I recommentd an endocrinologist.
January 16, 2008 at 11:44 pm
Hi Anon,
I was going back through older threads and found your comments and didn’t want to ignore them. I apologize for taking so long to respond to this.
I think that there can be some residue from past bad experiences and I would suggest that you try to find a Christian counselor who is a woman who might be able to talk you through some of these issues.
I also think that Cynthia Gee is correct, in that hormonal changes can fluctuate and combined with past problems could be really setting you up for some problems.
I would share your concerns with your husband and seek his patience and understanding in these things, too. Good communication in the bedroom has to start in the kitchen, if you know what I mean.
I will also be praying for you in this matter.
February 17, 2008 at 7:05 am
I hear that some of your said the you never dated before you got married. How old were you when you got married? I came from a church that was very strict and controlling about dating now that I left that church I feel that I was retarded in my growth in my interactions with men. I do talk with them and interact with them at work, in my courses and at young adult groups but I still have this protection that is up I know that can be good but at this point its hold me back I’m 35. Please dont just say trust the Lord I need some practical advice. I think there are some subtle fears and unhealthy ways of shutting my heart off the good Christian men. I havn’t been asked out. I am very discouraged.
February 17, 2008 at 9:11 pm
Daisymae,
I did date before I married, and I was 23 when I did. Now 41, I have no kids but lots of friends with plenty. (One friend says that I get to count two of hers!) My intimacy problems and fears have always been with women (because of a rocky relationship with my mother). IMO, women can be worse to deal with then men (but that’s been my past experience holding me back). I’m a success story, now having close friendships with several women for 15 years and counting. (Miraculous, believe me!) Chances are, as I found to be the case with women, the men are as akward as you are about them. The antidote, I would say, has been confidence within myself, independent of circumstances.
The first thing idea that pops into my head would be to find a mother of grown men about your age. (Who could possibly be more comfortable?) Some of these good souls have seen it all. I could imagine talking with my pastor for some help with this. I think that the more that you look at yourself as inadequate, the more it seems like a handicap. Get around some safe people in a safe environment. (Henry Cloud has a good book called “Safe People” if that’s an issue, and I found that book to be helpful to me.)
I also sought counseling for my similar but different “hitches” in life. I would go into it, if I chose that route, with a male counselor of good reputation and keep things very goal oriented. (“In three months, I want to be able to go here and do this every week with a 50% decrease in my feelings of anxiety.”)
Again, I think that my greatest “breakthroughs” have come when I have been surrounded by supportive, understanding and mature people. Sometimes they are hard to find, but sometimes, I have found that God just connects me with them. When I first started out as a nurse, I used to be afraid to talk to doctors. The best cure for it was talking to doctors, and I figured out that doctors were simply people like anyone else. In that sense, men are just people, too. My gut tells me that by gaining experience being comfortable, focusing on your good qualities and not where you’re lacking, things just work themselves out.
Consider that patriarchy has overfocused on gender and it is not really that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things. It’s central to everything only through perspective. Change your perspective by growing and learning about the perspective of other loving people. It’s my opinion that if you learn and practice building good relationships with a variety of people, working on appropriate intimacy, the rest will work itself out.
What happened with me in building friendships with women came when I felt comfortable and confident about myself. I took the focus off me and put it on the bigger picture. At church, it was spreading the Gospel and serving God in the comuunity of Saints. In Soon, gender didn’t matter. Not to say that I don’t have my hobby horse issues in other areas, but it seems that they are only problems when I focus on them as something lacking in me. I’m certain that you’re “made up of all the right stuff.” All you need is a safe place to practice and get some confidence-building experience, and I believe God has that waiting for you.
Men are really just people, too. Often, they are more easy to read and their needs are far more easy to anticipate. I like Harley’s “His Need’s Her Needs” for it’s general description of the differences between the sexes and how relationships work on a practical level. I don’t think it is as mysterious as people would like to make it all out to be.
February 17, 2008 at 10:09 pm
Thank you Cindy for responding. I appreciate you advice. I do need some clarification on some of the things you said. It has been my desire to find an older women to be a type of mentor. Maybe its obvious but I was wondering why you thought of a women who has a son my age? It has been challenging to find a woman mentor. Maybe I could join a womens bible study where there are some older women. (i am in groups that have been co-ed or women in 20s/30s)
The second piece of advice was finding a male couselor and establish clear goals. That’t great advice. Why a male counselor? I have good counselor some good some not so great. Is it an unrealistic goal to want to have a date within 3 months?
I did talk to my pastor and his wife about my desire (pretty healthy church). That was a big step for me because my former pastor basically had to give his stamp of approval if you were going to date someone and feel that it was “of God.”
Questions
Could you clarify what you mean when you said patriarchy has overfocused on gender?
Maybe its obvious but I was wondering why you thought of a women who has a son my age?
Why a male counselor? Is it an unrealistic goal to want to have a date within 3 months?
Change your perspective by growing and learning about the perspective of other loving people.
PS I really like Cloud and Townsend. I loaned out the book Safe People and didn’t get it back:)
Thank you again
February 18, 2008 at 5:19 am
Daisymae,
I think that the mentor thing is very overdone, so I wasn’t suggesting that you find a mentor, but rather just someone who is comfortable to talk with who would have a broader perspective. I find the unexpected relationships like these to be a great blessing. Silver haired women, whether they fit our values precisely or not often have a great deal to share about the experience of life. You could get a woman’s perspective — a woman who had lived through many seasons in life with insight that might help. I mean, it might end up being a grandmother or old aunt, talking about your family, too.
It may even be nice to find a neighbor or something that isn’t necessarily a Christian but has a nice family or perhaps came from a family with brothers. My key purpose was that of wisdom and someone at ease and with healthy relationships with men in her life. The elderly often remember their childhoods in great detail and “life review” is very therapeutic for them — and you might glean some good stuff! I learned a lot from the cleaning lady that I used to work with and from neighbors growing up. I don’t agree with them all, but I think that each person in life has a lot of wisdom that Christians can tend to overlook. I wouldn’t think of it as a formal thing at all.
I thought that with a good male counselor (you could always to a short term thing for the experience and go back to who you see now) would be someone with good, strong boundaries that could help you be at ease and could give you some insight, too. It would be a safe place to start. There would also be safety in a goal-oriented approach because you could track your progress and get the most out of things. (I believe that goals are essential in counseling and that the person seeking counsel should participate in the planning. That way, you always get somewhere and it doesn’t drift into an undirected habit. Counseling for me is about getting help in accomplishment and should always be directed.) A goal oriented thing would also provide saftey and structure for you as a boundary in itself, especially working with a man.
About whether a date in three months is a reasonable goal, I would say certainly! That could be your longer term goal, and then you could establish smaller, short-term goals that would build your confidence to carry you to the endpoint. An example of a short term goal might be interviewing three men about something over the next two weeks and journaling about what feelings you experienced. I really like Chris Thurmans “The Truths We Must Believe” as a good format for journaling like this. You could even have little daily goals. Essentially, this is the essence of what is known as cognitive behavioral therapy, the Christian version of which is mental spiritual warfare and the process of bringing every thought captive. And the counselor (male or female) can help you draw up acheivable goals that will help you build your confidence. I mean, it could even include Scripture memory, too. Chris Thurman cites some Shakespeare here and there, too — like “There’s nothing either good nor bad, but thinking makes it so.” I think that an essential part of it is cleaning up thought life (and I am preaching to myself about other areas of my own life, too).
(Goals also keeps counseling from becoming a whine session or an excuse for working on other relationships, too.)
About the patriarchy movement as overfocused on gender… Every group has its focus. If you go to a doctor for a checkup, they will be focused on improving your health (or should be). If you are sick, they will focus on your illness. If you go to a headache doctor for a foot problem, they are likely to try to turn your problems into a headache oriented illness, so in the same way, I think that patriarchy overfocuses on gender.
Take for instance, some of the Family Integrated Churches that require that men administer the host to women in the Lord’s Supper… Even (and especially) the rituals invove gender and remind you of gender. If you cannot speak in the sanctuary as a woman, this is another focus, even though it might not be preached. So much of the doctrine, rather than just gender generic focus on being Christlike, many churches teach that the way to do this can only come through a focus on how each gender can do that properly. Nearly everything has some kind of gender tag. In denominations that do not have this overfocus and in the larger society, this stuff is not important. And I recall Jennifer Epstein as saying that every sermon she heard over a several year period had to do either with some twist on gender or on voting for the Constitution party. That’s out of balance. Unrelated to gender, I have definitely been in Word of Faith churches that focused on nothing but divine healing. (Who cares if you were a bum, but you were okay if you were getting healed or quoting Scriptures about healing twice a day.) From my experience, the patriarchal churches are out of balance and put gender tags on things that don’t even call for them. That makes it all seem like a much bigger thing than it really is.
Some of this I see coming from tagging everything gender related as “Biblical” in some way when IMO, may things are really just banal. Much of it seems to me to be created and artificial. I’m sure that many people don’t agree. Basically, it boils down to the kingdom being about righteousness, joy and peace in the Holy Ghost. (Again, I am preaching to myself!) Things should flow, and if you stop focusing on the eating and drinking and the peripheral stuff, the good stuff flows very naturally and “organically.” Anyone else have any thoughts on this? His yolk is easy and burden light.
Let me know if I need to clarify. And you sound like you’re doing terrific. If you had a good experience with your pastor and his wife, maybe you could go back and get a bit more specific with them. They may not have a good idea themselves about some of the junk that goes on in some of these controlling churches. (That has been my experience.) There may be a couple of long lunches with some nice people and families, just waiting ahead for you to catch up to them. Ask, seek and knock. It sounds like you are well on your way.
February 18, 2008 at 12:51 pm
Daisymae,
First of all, congrats to you for getting out of that church! I did not date before I “dated” my husband beginning at age 22. I call it dating now, but at the time, my parents called it courtship. He’s a wonderful man and was willing to jump through all the hoops for me, but we don’t plan to control our children the way I was controlled. We have come a long way and I think we had to work through a lot b/c we didn’t date long enough. I would never change who I married, just the when. I was almost 24 when I got married. I don’t have a lot to say because I didn’t come out of the patriarchal home until after I was married. However, I also had a hard time relating to men until I developed some good friendships with them. Only after that point did my husband and I become attracted to one another. Are there possibly other experiences in your life, maybe your childhood, that have caused you distrust men? If so, you may want to work through these with a counselor also. I think Cindy suggested a male counselor b/c it would help you relate to a man in a safe environment. I would agree with Cindy’s suggestions and also mention that Henry Cloud wrote a book called How to Get a Date Worth Keeping. I haven’t read it, only heard about it, but it may be helpful. It sounds like you have made a lot of progress. Don’t be discouraged. You are worthy of love and you will get there! Hugs!
February 18, 2008 at 2:35 pm
You know, Daisymae, you might just want to go ahead and date the normal, decent-seeming men who ask you out.
Dating, done right , is not the “hook up circuit” that today’s teen-through-thirty somethings make it out to be. Dating is how civilized single men and women in Western culture meet each other, and how they learn enough about each other to determine if they have enough in common with one another to even want to pursue a deeper friendship, let alone a romance. In the case of Christian singles, one of the main questions will be, does this person share my faith? If he doesn’t share your faith (and it’s not a good idea to bring up religion on the very first date, any more that you would bring up marriage and childbirth — that just looks over-eager, and screwy. Wait and let the subject come up naturally), don’t date him anymore — you don’t have enough in common to be more than cordial acquaintances.
February 18, 2008 at 3:26 pm
Cynthia, I believe Daisymae said she hasn’t been asked out. Correct me if I’m wrong. I should add, Daisymae, that if this is the case, you are in good company. I was asked out maybe once before I was 22, and I am not an unattractive woman! I believe I was sending out a vibe, a subconscious “leave me alone” b/c of fear. Building friendships with godly men helped me overcome this and made my relationship with my future husband possible, as I mentioned in my previous comment. Also, I don’t think it’s a bad idea to go out with someone if they seem decent and ask you out as Cynthia suggested, but you could be meeting men in settings where you kind of know they have some similar beliefs and of course you discover the particulars through dating them–Church, or the young adult groups you mentioned. Not to say that you can’t meet a great Christian man by secular means. But perhaps you already know all this.
February 18, 2008 at 4:21 pm
I’m sorry, I didn’t catch that. And you are right about “vibes”. Another thing that a lot of Chrisitan women do is to take modest dressing to extremes. Dressing in a blatantly sexual manner is wrong, of course, but single women who want a husband should dress and behave so as to attract one. If a woman makes herself look fresh, friendly, and attractive, she will generally attract friendship and romance as well. But if she uses clothes as armor or wears a “church costume” (prairie dresses, denim jumpers, etc) and sends out “don’t approach me” vibes, no normal people will approach her, guaranteed.
February 18, 2008 at 11:23 pm
Daisymae,
I get asked out occassionally but the men are not christians. They usually are men I work with and their conversations are so ungodly it’s a no brainer.
I joined E-Harmony. The initial testing part is free and you always get matches. You pay only when you wish to start to communicate. Also check out E-Harmony ‘advice’ section. It is for both married and singles. I like it alot. It is also like a blog format and you can Q&A. I highly recommend you try reading it !!
February 20, 2008 at 10:11 am
Thank you for all your responses. I do feel like I sometimes give out the vibe that says leave me alone. I get scared probably because lack of experience and although I have a couple of degrees I have struggle to find my career niche and i am embarrassed and ashamed to some degree about it. I feel bad about the student loan debt i aquired while receiving the education that hasn’t seemed to pay off yet.
I have been on eharmony (even now) but havent received matches that I am interested in and if I am they didn’t respond (maybe they weren’t subscribers at the time).
I am moving through the communication stages on eharmony with someone that I wasnn’t incredibly interested in but I would at least like to start somewhere. A friend of mine got married from eharmony. I also didn’t grow up with my father nearby although we talked on the phone and I visited him. In college, I became closer to him and now we talk all the time, but I do feel like he denies that he wasn’t as helpful as he could have been. I lived with him while taking some classes so I got to know him better.
As far as the desire for a romantic hopefully I guess I am not sure when to be forward like letting a guy know I am interested and this hasn’t happened very often. I just don’t how to not to get fearful or nervous when I have had guys who were interested. Arrrghh. When I am not interested in a man I can be fairly normal and relaxed. The church I went to a few years ago ingrained this thought to be more guarded in interactions with men. I have gotton better but I haven’t arrived. For example a (few years ago), I was interested in a guy and I went to a concert where he was performing, he came over and said hello. When he had another break he came and sat by me ( acouple of seats down)and I basically ignored him. Weird huh. I was so scared and didn’t know what to say. I am so mad at myself about this. I did let him know later that he did a great job (via email)
The was great advice to read the column in eharmony is good.
February 20, 2008 at 8:29 pm
Daisy Mae,
That story about the concert sounds so familiar. Definitely something I would have done in my pre-dating days. Don’t be too hard on yourself. Maybe talk to him next time you see him in person since email isn’t as personal–although the email was definitely a good gesture. The best way to learn how not to be fearful or nervous around guys is PRACTICE! Work on being secure in who you are. Learn to laugh at yourself. That really helped me relax and be myself. If you spend enough time around the guys who make you nervous, I think it will help you realize they are just people, too. They get nervous and say or do the wrong thing sometimes themselves. Hope all this helps. Blessings!
February 20, 2008 at 10:22 pm
Keep pressing forward Daisy. Similar reactions happen to me. It’s proably rejection anxiety. I get alot of it. Try anticipating,just being yourself and don’t ‘put on airs’ thinking you have to be someone different. Be yourself right from the get go. Husband material IMO should be like a close girl friend who like being around, have a fair amount of mutual interests in common etc,easy to talk to except that you find him cute also !! hah.
Let him pursue you. Encourage him if he’s worth it for you but he has to put some work into it. Awesome on your ” couple of degrees ” I wish I had that !!!