This morning on NPR’s Morning Addition, I listened to an interview with novelist Julia Alvarez who discussed her recent book called Quinceanera: Coming of Age in the USA. According to the NPR site, “More than 350,000 Latina girls will turn 15 this year, and for many of them that means a big bash. The “quinceanera” is celebrated across Latin America and the United States. It’s a rite of passage, and a growing industry, in the United States. The average quinceanera dress can cost hundreds of dollars.” Another article with pictures can be found at this news site.
Wikipedia describes the celebrations this way: “The Quinceañera or Quince Años (sometimes represented XV Años, meaning “fifteen years”) is, in some Spanish-speaking regions of the Americas, a young woman’s celebration of her fifteenth birthday, which is celebrated in a unique and different way from her other birthdays. In some countries, such as Puerto Rico or Peru, the word Quinceañero is used instead of Quinceañera when referring to the celebration. The word is also used to refer to the young woman whose 15th birthday is being celebrated (analogous to the word cumpleañera for “birthday girl”). The closest equivalents to the Quinceañera in the English-speaking world are the sweet sixteen or, in more affluent communities, a debutante ball at the age of eighteen.”
In the culture in which you grew up, what marked the coming of age of girls? What do you believe could be the significance of this type of event? Evangelicals have recently begun having what they call Father-Daughter Purity Balls. Are these an attempt to provide a similiar coming of age celebration for Christians girls? Any thoughts?
August 6, 2007 at 9:16 pm
I’m all for celebrating what you daughter has become and accomplished.
Having said that… Some of these “coming of age” things have bothered me. I think it lies with the motives of the parents and their reasons for doing it.
My impression of some of these types of celebrations were not so much about celebrating your daughter (note: what I listed in my first sentence) as it was about promoting and pushing them into a certain phase of life that the parent has chosen for them or wants for them… combined with showing the world (or their family and friends) what they’ve shaped their daughter to be and what she WILL be. Frankly, as you can imagine, I’ve little stomach for these types of exhibitions.
Then there are graduation parties, or what would be their equivalent. If these are done with the intention of showing their daughter how proud they are of her, and want to share how proud they are with family and friends; I’m all for this. It’s more of a gesture to their daughter than anything else, something I feel is awesome and much healthier than the other scenario. What daughter doen’t want her parents public approval and appreciation?
August 6, 2007 at 11:20 pm
ooo — interesting! have you read The Body Project? the author talks about how girls came of age in Victorian times and compared it to contemporary times. she starts with the anecdote from a women’s history class with college girls in which she asked them, “what do you think of when you think of a victorian woman?” most remembered corsets or oppressive husbands. but as the historian looked at those young women, she saw women who were suffering from all sorts of similar cultural oppression like anorexia and bulimia. had they really left the corsets behind?
when she studied a victorian girl’s coming-of-age, she found that becoming a woman was an new life. a girl lengthened her skirts and put up her hair. she joined an elaborate multi-generational society which a strong ethic that featured charity and industry and that protected her.
what happens when a girl comes of age today? the change is isolated and peer-focused and consumerist. she goes out with her friends to buy a thong bikini.
we’ve lost something in the change, and I think perhaps the church especially has dropped the ball.
what did i do? not much. . . .
August 6, 2007 at 11:53 pm
I actually was invited to an authentic Quinceanera by one of my students last year, though I wasn’t able to attend. She actually won a lavish Mexican party by writing an essay (in Spanish) and celebrated almost a year late, because her parents couldn’t have afforded the party otherwise. The pictures were incredible. Then, a few months later, she was whisked away by her mother back to Mexico because she was pregnant by her steady boyfriend…and I haven’t heard from her since. And her boyfriend was willing to support her and he has no idea how to contact her now. Sad.
I don’t know what that story says except that sometimes all the fuss is just that– just b/c someone turns 15 or 16 doesn’t mean they’ve automatically matured. It reminds me of the debutante balls that are still around in some Southern cities (I declined my opportunity to participate through my uncle). It’s all show now– there is no “society” to come out into…just the same country-club friends showing off.
(by the way, whoever came up with the idea of giving a 16 year old a new car (and those who perpetuate it) should be ashamed of themselves! I’ve seen parents of already spoiled kids just perpetuate the problem with these gifts.)
I actually turned 16 during a school trip to Paris…and was kissed on the cheek by a Parisian waiter when my friends surprised me with a cake! I suppose that entire trip was a rite of passage…my first time out of the country and seeing a new world beyond the borders of my small town.
I think if the moment is truly made meaningful, by family and friends offering new responsibilities and opprtunities, the “sweet sixteen” could maintain some worth as a turning point in the lives of young girls.
August 7, 2007 at 1:09 am
I think Quinceaneros are becoming much more popular- at least in Texas, where I live. When my oldest was 15 none of her friends had one. My son participated in a couple a few years ago and my fourteen year old is going to be in the “court” in two different quinceaneros this fall. I fault the articles for focussing on the party rather than the religious aspect, which is important. All of the quinceaneros I have attended have begun with a special mass. The girls have entered the church carrying a doll which is meant to be their “last doll” and they exchange the doll for a bouquet of flowers (symbolizing their leaving childhood.) The priest’s homily focuses on faith and virtue and the girl’s responsibilities as a young woman. Family and friends often do the readings. I have found all the quince masses I have attended to be very moving.
I have been to a couple of joint quinceaneros where two girls had their quince together. My son was in the court of a quinceanero which ended with a pretty elaborate party (which was a lot of fun). The two that my youngest will participate in this fall will be much more modest.
I think the growing popularity of the quince is interesting. My husband’s family is from Mexico and none of his sisters had a quince. All of the girls that we know who have had quinces are Hispanic but they are also VERY assimilated. A couple of the mothers told me that their daughters really wanted to have a quince after attending a relative or friend’s. (Actually, my youngest started agitating for a quince last year after she went to the elaborate one her brother was involved in. We’re not going to do it, though.)
August 7, 2007 at 12:22 pm
Camille said: “what happens when a girl comes of age today? the change is isolated and peer-focused and consumerist. she goes out with her friends to buy a thong bikini. we’ve lost something in the change, and I think perhaps the church especially has dropped the ball.”
I was thinking this as well. What can the church do to change this?
The Bible talks about older women teaching younger women. That is a place to start but I don’t think any real teaching takes place outside of building good relationships.
When I was in high school, we had the most awesome Sunday school teacher. I had often wished that the boys had their own class because I think we could have had more real conversation if they weren’t around. She had much wisdom to share with us but it was only for 45 minutes on a Sunday morning.
I think this is one of the down sides to some of the philosophies out there. While I am all for parents discipling their children, I think we need to have genuine relationships between our kids and other adults who are genuine and mature in the Lord. There is something quite powerful that occurs when other adults present the same worldview to your kids that you have taught them.
I also think that the popular emphasis in the church for young women is on moral purity, which is good, but it isn’t the only thing. I get frustrated with the purity balls emphasis on girls and their virginity. Of course we want to encourage this in young women, but there is so much more to a young woman than that and they need to see that their worth to the Lord and to the body of Christ is multi-facted. Perhaps some sort of “quinceanera” on a smaller scale is what we need. What about an elegant girl evening when a young woman moves from junior high to high school age? You could have a program that consists of time for girls to show their accomplishments and both parents, not just dad, being there to encourage them to be the best the Lord wants them to be. And behind the scenes, the emphasis to older women to build these relationships with the younger women in natural ways that will allow them to “one another” each other. Just some thoughts….
August 7, 2007 at 12:25 pm
One other note…
The author who was interviewed yesterday on NPR talked about the high number of these young women who end up pregnant not long after they are 15. I am wondering how much of the whole celebration is like today’s modern wedding amongst those who are not believers. There is the religious emphasis in the ceremony but it really doens’t mean anything. The truth is that a wedding is simply a big expensive party to most people.
August 7, 2007 at 4:34 pm
That mom – I was having the same line of thought as you in your last comment. Many people celebrating this will not be Christians anyway. But a real issue I believe for Christians is the amount of money and extravagance put into proms, parties, weddings etc. It is another form of immodesty and show (as discussed in a previous post). We have nothing like this over here- although some schools are starting to have leavers proms. I don’t know what I think about it all really. One lavish event does not make a young woman.
August 7, 2007 at 5:14 pm
Well, I know alot about the “prom culture” in the midwest, mostly because I once had a friend who was a seamstress and she did alterations on prom dresses every spring. Her stories were amazing.
Were I live, the average price for a prom dress is several hundred dollars and some people pay upwards of a $1000.00 or more if they travel to Chicago to shop. Then they have shoes, other accessories, hairstyling, jewelry, and professionally done make-up. They also purchase clothing for after prom activities. The guys also have considerable expense, including dinners, flowers, tux and accessories, limousine service, after prom activities, etc. The money is just one issue.
There is a subtle message that prom is the night for sex and drinking so many parents will actually rent a hotel room for couples. They don’t want them on the road drunk.
Where I live, there is also a professional photography shoot and what is called a Grande March where the couples “parade” for family and friends. I have actually been told, though I don’t have proof, that there are several local businesses that make the bulk of their annual income through the prom business.
On top of this, it is customary here for couples, if they are in youth groups, to go to church the next morning in their prom clothing. Too weird.
I guess as I read through these posts and thought about it, around here prom is some rite of passage.
My children were deprived, they were homeschooled and the fanciest they got was a night at the Peoria Symphony and a lovely dinner out with mom and dad. Sorry guys, for scarring you for life!
August 7, 2007 at 8:30 pm
My response is a bit different. Really, my first thought was, “If only girls were allowed to come of age in the home school movement!” Think of a lot of the home school girls you know – don’t they all seem 19 going on 14, at first blush anyway?
Home school girls are perpetually trapped at age 14 or so until the magic day of marriage arrives. It seems your wedding is the time you are given adult status (if then – I know several parents who run their adult, married children’s lives as if they were young teens).
Any hint of sexuality or modest adult female attractiveness is often shameful. I know several home school girls with eating disorders, and I think this is part of it (i.e. the adult female body is sinful).
I think this is why we see so many shapeless jumpers and buns. Don’t get me started on kick pleats. I am not saying that ladies should not be modest, but you can even manage to wear long skirts regularly without looking weird & you can style your hair and put on a little powder. Even Bill Gothard thinks we should curl our hair, right?
Lastly, I find father/daughter purity balls pretty creepy. It seems like it’s another way to insert dad in between God and daughter/female. The whole guarding heart/purity issue is often an excuse for Dad and Mom to snoop and control to an unhealthy degree. I have many specific example from multiple families. I am also totally creeped out by the giving your heart to daddy thing. I don’t think that needs ANY elaboration.
August 7, 2007 at 9:08 pm
I guess from the perspective of an adult it is obvious that one night doesn’t mean you are an adult and such.
But growing up we had a boarder who was a young Hispanic girl. I think I was 12 and she was 8 and she lived with us during the school year for about 3 years. [this was overseas and there was no school where her family lived, she attended the same school as I].
There were a series of thing that she looked forward to celebrating as she became a woman. And I remember celebrating a few of those moments with her and her family. Each time she eagerly took on the responsibilities that came with her new status.
I remember at the time of being very jealous of her and the events.
August 8, 2007 at 12:06 pm
What about some kind of invitation from the older women in church to participate in more “adult” ministries? It’s become somewhat of a trend among my younger 20-something friends to ask an older woman in church to become their mentor. I didn’t do it because I thought it would feel too forced if I asked like that. But I think it could make a younger woman feel quite special to have an older lady come alongside, mento her and train her for some ministries. To me this has some of the feel of what The Body Project talked about — a strong community of women which girls entered, which defined feminity for them.
And I also am very creeped out by the “give Daddy my heart” idea. Just the other day my friends and I were reminiscing about the song ” I want to marry Daddy when I grow up.” Ever heard it? Yikes!
August 8, 2007 at 1:25 pm
I know for me, I was really excited when I was old enough to lead the 3 & 4 year old Sunday School class at 14.
These days, the church abuse prevention policies mean you can’t do that until your 18. But by that point, you’ve already likely received your driver’s licence, graduated from high school and so forth.
Its hard, but I think there are more things available to young girls to make them feel like they are growing up than there are to young boys. At least, valuable and meaningful things. I’ve been thinking about this because my oldest is a boy and I want to come up with ‘traditions’ for our family now and need to pre-plan otherwise the kids will know it was last minute.
August 8, 2007 at 2:15 pm
I don’t think the four of us (siblings)did anything much to mark particular ages. We had birthday parties or meals as we got older.We were (praise God) all saved and baptized and in church membership by the time we were 18 (I think). I went away to uni- leaving home was a big thing for me. I had a meal with my parents when I grauduated….as did my siblings. The most ‘lavish’ /celebrated events of our lives have been our weddings, but even they were pretty modest. I can understand that wish to dress up and feel like a princess- but I can’t help feel that it is kind of false- really short lived and not a ‘real’situation.
Having said that, this article is about a culture that I know nothing aboutso I am just speaking from personal preference.
August 8, 2007 at 2:29 pm
Actually, I don’t remember exactly how it started, but in my church growing up, the homeschoolers would have a “costume ball” for their 18th birthday. I think it started when my BF turned 18, and then it continued on down the line for a few years. It was really nice for us since we didn’t have proms.
Usually, we would dress up as historical characters (usually home-made costumes or thrift-store finds adapted for the occasion), or have the ball run around some other theme. Some people taught us how to contra-dance (like square-dancing down a line), and everyone would dance with everyone else.
It wasn’t really a “date” thing, the whole church would be invited, and everyone–from the kids to the elderly–would have a great time.
For us, it was a nice coming-of-age event, without being overtly sexual.
August 8, 2007 at 2:31 pm
Almost forgot to mention–these celebrations weren’t limited to the girls in our church–my younger brother and my BF’s younger brother were born a few weeks apart, and they had a joint masquerade ball when they turned 18.
December 2, 2007 at 8:29 pm
I think these parties are very much not needed. These girls have accomplished nothing to deserve this kind of attention. Furthermore, it tells them they are women. Now they can do whatever they want since they have had their big party. Reward excellence not age. And stop spending all that money like there is no tomorrow.
December 6, 2007 at 12:36 am
I work with many latinos. Sexual activity at a young age is experienced by many and legally is defined as statuatory rape although the culture doesn’t define it as that. Both the Latino and Black community is in a huge moral crisis and least from my perspective in a inner city setting.
May 9, 2008 at 3:53 am
having a quince is very important to a girl because it not only shows tradicion its giving her more responsibility and showing that she is transforming from a girl to a woman
September 15, 2008 at 5:56 pm
i wonder if, breaking away from “coming of age parties” has anything to do with the rise in divorce?
we still want/ need a traditional way to say that now I am an adult. instead of a; bar(bat) mitzvah, Quintceneara, Debutante ball, sweet 16 party, we have weddings to plan. personally i would rather plan a big party just to celebrate my daughter becoming an adult and plan a small wedding that is about God uniting her as a wife, than try to use a wedding as her big day, while forgetting that she is making a commitment to God her husband, future children and society as a whole.
October 27, 2008 at 5:10 pm
“Of course, most women now marry a bit later, but 15 or 16 used to be the age – and still is in many cultures.”
You know, I see this comment all the time, and as a historian I always have an itch to correct it. Marriage in the early-mid teens has never been the norm. It’s true it used to happen occasionally in the past, but it was never a widespread practice.
When 13 or 14 year olds were married in the past, it was a political gesture among the upper classes. 99% of people did not live like that, and it was not considered a good age to marry. The children involved were cementing relationships between their families, not each other. But history tends to record disproportionately the actions of the most powerful, and so we get a misleading idea that young teenagers were regularly groomed for marriage in the past.
In fact, the average marriage age was only slightly younger 500 years ago than it is today – it was about 22-24 for women, and 24-26 for men. The reason was the same reason we delay marriage at the moment – young people need a few years to put aside money to start their own household, and apprentice and learn the skills they need to support a family. Plus, it can take a few years to meet a good marriage partner! I met my husband at 18, but that was my own great good fortune – not everyone gets lucky so fast.
“A girl can now fulfill her highest calling, that of being a wife and a mother. Her body is ready for the child-bearing role.
As I said above, my area of expertise is history, not physiology, but I do believe this statement is incorrect. There is more to being physically ready for children than menarche. It is just one sign that God gives us about our bodies, not the sign.
For example, medical science shows us that the decision-making parts of the brain are not fully developed until the very late teens. That’s why 13 year olds are not generally capable of making wise choices (of course, many are – but even those that are are not operating at ‘full capacity’, so to speak – they will get better at decision making by the time they are 18 or 19).
Similarly, though a young girl may be menstruating, at 13 her pelvis and her body in general are not fully developed. Childbearing is far more dangerous for her than it is for a woman of 23.
That’s why the Bible gives us the age of 19 or 20 as the time we become adults – because these complex bodies God has given us take time to develop properly, physically and mentally!
That’s not to say that menarche is not an important milestone, but I believe it marks the time we stop being children, but are not yet given full adult responsibilities. I know a lot of patriarchal writers like to rubbish ‘teenagers’, (and there is plenty to criticise, don’t get me wrong, if we make the phase an extended childhood, instead of a period of increasing responsibilities and ‘practice’ for being an adult), but it seems to me that God has, in the Bible and in the very design of our bodies, given us this time for specific purposes – and not to leap into adulthood with the onset of menstruation.
(Incidentally, my cousin experienced menarche at age 8. I don’t think it was a sign from God she was ready to be married.)
October 27, 2008 at 7:48 pm
As a cross-culture missionary, I beg to differ with you. You are talking about American culture. I am talking about Latin culture, which is one of the cultures under discussion.
Actually, I’m not American. I was born in Britain and raised for many years in Africa, and my mother was born in Argentina
My historical references were not to America, though they were very biased to Europe and the Levant, where most of my study has been directed.
I must disagree with your assertion that mid-teen marriage can be a cultural norm, and I would appreciate a link to a study which showed widespread marriage at 16 or younger, in any society at any time (I am 99.9% certain that no Christian society has operated that way – though I would of course still be very interested in non-Christian societies).
Remember, average life-expectancy in many places is still somewhere around mid-40s. Of course marriage tends to be entered into at a younger age when one only has another 20-30 years to live after hitting age 15!
…
We mature much slower in our culture, and most are not really ready to marry until mid-20s, not mid-teens.
I do agree that this is a significant factor in maturity, but it doesn’t outweigh the physiological factors that I mentioned above – regardless of whether society is telling you at 14 that you are an adult, your brain and your skeleton are not. God has not designed us to reach maturity until our late teens. Yes, an environment where one cannot expect to live much beyond our mid-40s will encourage people to ‘get on with it’ and find a marriage partner quicker, but the neccessities I mentioned in my earlier comment (financial issues and the time it takes just to find a partner) will still mean that we tend towards finding a partner after the age of 18. Even taking God’s stated design out of it, getting married and having babies earlier to maximise your chance of raising healthy children isn’t improved if you are 13 or 14 – you are much less likely to survive childbirth.
But thank you very much for your response, and I do see your point. I’m not discounting that difficult environments lead people to marry earlier, I just don’t think it’s quite as early as 14 or 15, and I don’t think that marriage that early is God’s plan (for ANY society), or from a secular point of view, even advisable medically as far as ‘survival of the fittest’ goes.
October 28, 2008 at 10:56 am
“A woman may do other things. Having a family is what a woman was made for.”
So, what happened to Mary Magdalene? She was not doing what she was ‘made’ for?
October 28, 2008 at 10:57 am
Oh, I forgot to ask…
Is being a husband and father what men were made for?
October 28, 2008 at 11:11 am
“What is the purpose of a coming of age celebration? What role does it serve in any culture?
I suggest that it is, or used to be, an announcement that a girl is now a woman and therfore available for marriage if the right young man wishes to court her.
A girl can now fulfill her highest calling, that of being a wife and a mother. Her body is ready for the child-bearing role.
The virgin princess is now mature and ready for her prince. Of course, most women now marry a bit later, but 15 or 16 used to be the age – and still is in many cultures.”
Her body is ready for child-bearing at 15? I would talk to an OB about that.
I know someone who said that he has failed as a father because his daughter wasn’t married off at the age of 16. I asked him why he felt like that and he said that her body was ready to give birth so therefore she should marry. He also wouldn’t have a problem with a much older man taking interest in his young daughter. (shiver)
Yuck. It reminds me of an old saying that some (dirty) older men used to say concerning me to my step-father when I was a teen:
“If there is grass on the field, play ball.”
A boy can probably impregnate a female at the age of 11, shouldn’t he be performing his biological duty since that is the only reason we are here and that is our “highest calling”?
Honestly, I see none of this sentiment in the Gospels at all. Why is it that Jesus left out this “highest calling” out of all of His teachings? That seems weird.
In fact, 1 Cor. 7 seems to say to us that it is NOT our highest calling and that we would be happier if we didn’t get married. Sure, most people desire to get married and have children but I do not see the Bible teaching that this is our “highest calling”.
Are we talking biological or spiritual? It almost sounds Darwinian to me- we are reduced to biological urges and such.
I really do not think that if a boy can ejaculate and a girl is menstruating that it means that they are ready to assume their “highest calling”.
Or does this “high calling” only relate to women?
October 28, 2008 at 11:37 am
I am not trying to pick a fight, nor am I “hunting heretics.” But I think it is vitally important we not go beyond what scripture has to say.
We must take the whole counsel of scripture, not just bits and pieces. Let’s look at Genesis 1 in context.
26 Then God said, “Let us make human beings in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
27 So God created human beings in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
Note that having children is but one of several purposes of both men and women, but nowhere does God declare it is woman’s (or man’s) “highest calling.” In fact, the first responsibility God declares for women and men alike is in verse 26, ruling over the creatures.
We also have scripture that clearly refutes the notion that being a wife and mother is a woman’s “highest calling.”
Paul tells us it is better to remain single (1st Corinthians). If a woman’s highest calling were to marry and have children, why would Paul say such a thing? Unless, perhaps, you don’t believe Paul’s word on this matter is authoritative?
If you don’t think Paul’s word is authoritative, however, we also have Jesus’ words in Luke 11:27.
27 As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”
28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”
What is Jesus telling us here? Jesus has just told us something other than a woman’s role as a mother is far more important.
Even so, being a wife and a mother is every woman’s desire.
This is false. I know women who do not have the desire to marry or have children. Instead, they are called to singlehood and ministry, just as Paul commends.
Do you think that marriage and having children is degrading to women?
Not at all. I don’t know where you get the idea that I find marriage and motherhood degrading. They are good things. I’ve been happily married for over 20 years, and have four children. I treasure being a wife and mom. But we must not make an idol of marriage and motherhood. Just because something is the norm does not automatically mean it is the “highest calling.” Most people are able to marry and have children. It’s not terribly hard. Following Christ is much harder.
October 28, 2008 at 12:37 pm
On marital age, a woman’s body matures when there is enough fat on her to make having babies something she can hopefully survive.
So in rich cultures, a woman reaches physical maturity early: such as in our American culture, girls are pretty much fully developed into an adult woman’s body by 14-16 years of age. Most modernized countries are similar. We have a lot of food and the ability to eat it. Walla: fertile bodies at an earlier age.
However, thoughout most of history, fat has not been something that’s been normal. Fattening foods were not in abundance, nor was the time to sit around eating. Our girls in America have their first periods around age 12 (which has been our average since the 1970′s). In 1900, that average age was 14-15!
I agree with webfoot on her admiration for the culture that celebrates a girls entrance into womanhood. I’ve always thought that the Quinc was so cool! My mom took me out for dinner when I had my first period and we celebrated. I thought that was wonderful.
She had thought she was dying when she had her first period—her mother had never told her what it was or what would happen. It was treated as if it was a bad thing, not a beautiful thing. I appreciated my mom’s attempt to do something different. Her taking me out to dinner really helped me feel like something special had just happened to me.
I’m not hip on the idea that a woman’s highest calling is to be a wife and mother, however. Sorry, webfoot.
It leaves too many women out, tells too many women that they are “second best.”
I believe that a woman’s highest calling is to follow Christ. He has a path for each of us to walk. So for some women, that will be marriage and family. For others, like Amy Carmichael, it may mean going to a foreign country and rescuing the unlovely and the innocent from harm. Still others will be called to marriage but not to children (or vice versa, as many single mothers, widows, and divorced women can attest).
If we make marriage and family the highest calling, we turn it into an idol. Marriage and children are *a* high calling. One of many that a believer may be called to.
October 28, 2008 at 12:54 pm
“Now, from your Bibles, prove that women were made to be something other than wives and mothers, and that men were made to be something other than husbands and fathers.
Prove that celebacy is the norm or even desired for all but a very few. Is being married and bearing children the inferior calling and celebacy the high calling?
Gnosticism would teach you that. Forbidding marriage and sexual activitiy across the board is a Gnostic ideal. Androgyny is the Gnostic ideal, too, where male and female are blended into one. The body is evil in Gnostic thinking, so sexual activity is a bad thing. The ideal is to have male and female reunited, no longer separated into opposite polarities.”
Did you get the idea from this blog that some are Gnostics who forbid marriage?
October 28, 2008 at 2:01 pm
OR: you are either a fan of patriarchal headship/submission or a fan of denying all male/female distinctions (androgyny!?).
OR: you are either complementarian or deny the inerrancy of Scripture.
How many times have I read these exact arguments?
October 28, 2008 at 9:54 pm
Okay, I get it now. I would just prefer people to be WYSIWYG so that we all could just “come, let us reason together”. Some of us have backgrounds that have put some filters in place, and once we actually started to READ the Bible for ourselves, without man’s interpretation to muddy up the waters, we actually found we could hear His Still Small Voice, which told us to come back to Him, our First Love.
I’ve walked some of what molleth has walked, and Corrie, and others here and I want to always go forward, not clinging to anything in this life. Maybe the grace we’re to have with others who haven’t walked that path — yet — takes more time (like with me) than others.
I’ve learned so much from the encouragement to discern from this particular group of believers in Christ than many in all my years of walking through the Scriptures with “man’s” biases, trying to follow the simple truth of the Gospel.
There is a way that seems right unto a man, but it’s end is the way of death. – Prov. 14:12
October 28, 2008 at 10:46 pm
A woman’s highest calling is to be a disciple of Jesus Christ, whether or not she marries and bears children. Her body’s potential for reproduction does not determine her highest calling.
October 29, 2008 at 8:06 am
Kathleen, thanks for saying that you think my beliefs are made clear when I express myself on my blogs. I really appreciate that. One of my desires is to be genuine in how I live and what I write and speak. I really think I am fairly transparent and I appreciate the feedback from you. I will also say that the same is true of the regular commenters here. I always appreciate the fact that you dear ladies are sincere and are continually seeking the truth of the Word of God.
October 29, 2008 at 9:25 am
Psalmist you are exactly correct. Our highest calling is to serve the Lord Jesus Christ. Our biological capacities do not determine our highest calling. If that were true, then there are many women who will never realize the highest calling of a “real” woman because they are not married or they can’t produce children. And the Gospel seems to be against that sentiment because of the women Jesus CHOSE to showcase His power and truth.
Mary left the kitchen and sat at Jesus’ feet. She chose the BETTER thing.
The woman who washed Jesus’ feet and “wasted” her expensive perfume on Him as the disciples grumbled was not told that because she was a wife and mother people will remember this story wherever the Gospel is told.
Am I saying that we shouldn’t marry or have children? That is nonsense.
I am saying that our highest calling is being a disciple of Christ. Anything after this fact is what makes us different from each other.
The single woman in the jungle who is ministering to the lost is pursuing her calling. The woman at home with a bunch of little ones is pursuing her calling. And these callings change as the seasons of life come and go.
There is no “highest” calling for a woman other than being a disciple of Christ. Being a wife/mother is not higher than being a woman who is single-mindedly devoted to the Lord. 1 Cor. 7 needs to be employed more in this discussion and it needs to be understood more by those who think that women are the sum total of their biological functions.
What I do as a stay-at-home mom is just as important as what a single woman does in her service to the Lord. And vice versa. There are not heirarchies of Christians and their rank/importance because of what they do in God’s Kingdom.
October 29, 2008 at 9:33 am
Karen, I started to read your blogs here because God’s in control and is leading His people into all truth. When I first started to read Truewomanhood, I came because of a sideline issue and wanted to know what everyone was talking about. In my own local congregation, I was dealing with a lot of what Cindy K has helped my to identify as “cognitive dissonance” in my own struggle with the patriocentric (and I must add over-the-cliff) teachings from local “leadership”. Then, I really started to read more of others’ blogs who had walked this path. Many are regular commenters here that I consider my soul sisters in Christ. They say things about my inner person who has been shaped by His Spirit, but has been crushed by man’s burdensome teachings.
I haven’t gotten that except in rare, temporary cases in real life (locally). This place and other commenters’ blogs, too, have helped me to understand the heart of the Gospel better.
Now, when I started out, I was a little like molleth’s response. There was no way I wanted to accept that my husband wasn’t my authority, yada yada, and I was fearful of man’s opinion of me — specifically, that I’d be called a rebellious woman, out from under my covering, I was a feminist or any other title to discourage me from following the unction to study the Word for myself. This process was bringing me back to my First Love and the centrality of one of my favorite passages in the Bible, Ephesians 1. My identity is in Christ, not in my position in my marriage, or how many children I’ve given birth to, whether I married or not, etc. That’s what I find so many of the intelligent and dedicated women in these conversations all have in common. And that’s the kind of “encouraging one another, and all the more, as you see the Day drawing near” that I want to participate in.
October 29, 2008 at 7:23 pm
I am for feminism if, by feminism, a person is referring to classic feminism. That is simply the belief that women should be treated with the same dignity and rights that men are given, ie, that they should have an equal right to vote, to speak, to attend schools, to attempt to succeed in the occupation of their choosing, to choose what path they embark on in life, etc.
If, by feminism, a person means radical leftist feminism, then, no, I’m not that kind of feminist.
But feminism is a huge thing, with many different flavors, just as Christianity is a huge thing, with many different individual versions of what Christianity should look like. I am a Christian, but I do not fit within many of the subsets of Christianity. In the same way, I am a feminist, but I do not fit within some of the subsets of feminism.
I am all for wiping the mud off of the label “feminist” (unfortunately well known as the “Conservative Christian f-word”, a slur to throw at someone whenever you don’t like what they think). I think believing that women should have the right to vote, to go to school, and to make a decision about what they do with their lives is something that Christ would believe. So I think being a feminist is something that a Christ-follower should be.
I am not anti-feminist. I am against sin and shame and oppression and degredation. Those are things that happen in a fallen world. But feminism is a movement that seeks to help women not be given a “bigger helping” of sin and shame and death.
In a world that has been owned by patriarchy since the Fall, women have suffered. Burqas. The life of their babies being dependant on whether the woman’s husband decides he will keep it. Female circumcision. Marriage to a man she does not know. Being considered a lesser-than. Being considered inferior, incapable of higher learning. Being considered slightly above an animal. Being considered property. The list goes on and on.
A Christ who came to set us free from the curse of sin and death is the kind of Christ I follow. Which is why I have no problem identifying with the label, feminist.
Warmly,
Molly
October 29, 2008 at 10:37 pm
“Also, no one on this blog ever wants to say anything that might reflect negatively on feminism.”
This is a rash over-generalization and an untrue statement. There are too many superlatives in that statement.
This blog isn’t about going after those “nasty” feminists. This blog is about discussing TRUE biblical womanhood and blow the smoke away from the mirrors so people can see what is really of God and what is manmade tradition.
I have plenty against pro-abortion, bra-burning, radical feminism or “feminazis” as Rush calls them.
But, most of the time the patrios and the comps stay busy knocking down strawfeminists of their own making.
It is like saying that we never want to say anything bad about homosexuals on this blog when most of us, I am sure, are of the opinion that homosexuality is sinful.
We are not feminists in the way that many people throw around that word. Many of us might be more like the early feminists who fought for the right to vote among other basic rights of citizens of this country.
I have no desire to cut down lost people who do not know Christ. So, why would we waste our time denigrating those who don’t know the truth and who don’t walk in the Light? It makes no sense.
If you want us to blame everything that is bad in the Church on feminism, then you are barking up the wrong tree. What would we blame the first 2,000 years of bad in the Church then? Masculinism? And I am tired of people exchaning the word “sin” for the word “feminism”. Not everything is a feminist conspiracy, either.
October 31, 2008 at 8:43 pm
Just to make everyone aware…comments from Donna Carlaw/Webfoot have been deleted from the most recent threads. (Other commenters may have been deleted if the comments no longer made sense out of context. Others were left because there were clear points made that did not need the context of the coversation to make sense.)
It was stated back in June that Donna was not welcome here after she repeatedly tried to reveal private information and/or real names about other commenters, in an attempt to slander.
Again, as we have stated repeatedly, we welcome dissenting comments so long as they are done so respectfully . Name calling, hateful speech, and personal attacks will not be tolerated.
December 7, 2009 at 4:56 pm
a quinceanera is for a girl that turnes 15 that becames a women and that is the best thing that can every happen but it only comes 1 in a life time thank for your time love mariacarmen
July 2, 2010 at 1:28 am
In the culture in which you grew up, what marked the coming of age of girls? I am an American of Latin (Mexican) descent, first generation. I have been to plenty of Quinceanera’s, since I do the photography and video for most of the extended family and close friends. I didn’t have a quinceanera, but did have a wedding at 23. We didn’t celebrate it because we had moved and were not close to the aunts/uncles that could have helped financially to sponsor and celebrate it. Even if they would of sent the money it wouldn’t have had much meaning without them.
What do you believe could be the significance of this type of event? What does this mean? Why is it important? So to answer these questions, I believe that because we come from large closer knit families(even if not by choice!), this is a celebration to mark a transition in the family as a whole. Women are very important in the culture, Grandma tries her best to keep the peace amongst all her kids, then each of her daughters is expected to do the same amongst their kids. This turns into a lifetime challenge with larger families. When the first grand daughter turns fifteen, it is very special, as Grandma and all her now most likely married kids with kids acknowledge they are no longer at the bottom of a short pyramid for sure, the little ones are starting a new stage in life – Teenagers!!! and not to far away from having kids of their own. Sweetly remembering, that it wasn’t that long ago that you were having that baby shower, 1st bday party, and get together after get together watching them playing with their cousins at all those family gatherings with the carne asada, tamales, tacos, and pinatas which they loved to break and fight for candy. Whether it’s your own daughter or your brother’s or sister’s daughter. Being asked to be a sponsor(God parent) is an expected honor for close family, bragging rights, and earned VIP treatment. More problems are caused by being left out than ‘having’ to dish out money for so many parties when there are a few to close together. So what to do if you are not asked, the logical thing of course, they might be shy to ask or not sure because of past issues, you offer of course, to which you will never be refused, also a way to earn some forgiveness for some of those past issues… And what about the left out males, well they get their piece of the financial pie too! The culture has the expectation that the guys’ family pays for their weddings in full, don’t forget the girls are special – they are supposed to keep the peace! Well I have two boys, so no payback for all the times we have been sponsors, but hey it’s not my brothers and sisters fault that I decided to have a small family. It is important, because it is a part of the culture, so the girls grow up around these celebrations, often being a part of the court of their friends quinceanera’s and would love to have one too. Like wanting to have anything else your peers have. It’s just something they grow up wanting to have as part of the culture. Just like proms, sweet 16′s, weddings, etc. And the pregnancy thing, well it’s true, most end up pregnant soon after, however, it should be noted that most would actually be pregnant before 15 if they were not waiting until after they are 15, because it is expected that they remain virgins, otherwise no one wants to sponsor the event if there is any evidence that they are not, even if it’s by false accusations, so parents and the girls have to show a high level of supervision over the daughters as additionally proof in guarding their daughter s honor up to the day. Afterwards, well like any other teenager the girls just want to get out and have fun, unfortunately, most are not expected to do anything until they marry and don’t even think they will end up giving in to their emotions. I agree that the party is not earned, like most parties aren’t, it’s just families celebrating events in life, in this case, from my poing of view a celebration of the women in the upcoming generation that will carry the immense burden of being a woman.