I’ve been thinking a lot lately about what it means to be a godly woman because I now have the responsibility to raise a godly woman. It is one thing to try to muddle through and figure things out as best you can for yourself. It is something totally different when you realize that you are going to be shaping someone else’s view of God and how He views her.
I suspect different women struggle with different aspects of how to apply their convictions about being a woman. For example, I haven’t struggled much at all in the area of being a woman in a marriage. But I’ve had a horrible time figuring out where to fit in in the church setting. I’m more traditional/conservative in a lot of ways theologically and in worship. But I’m less so when it comes to my views in how women can participate in the life of the body. It has made it almost impossible to find a church where we really fit in. I was happiest as a woman using my gifts at one particular church, but found so much of what else they were doing to be out of my theological comfort zone. I’ve found other churches to be more “comfortable” for me theologically and in worship style, but way different and actually confining in terms of women using their gifts.
We’ve erred on the side of being in agreement theologically and in worship style in our choice of churches, even though it has meant that I am not free to fully use my gifts. This has been really hard for me. And it is becoming harder because now I have a little girl who will need to understand at some point why we make the choices we do. And I’m not sure I can fully explain it to her when I can’t even say I’m completely comfortable with the choices we’ve made.
So I’m not sure where this discussion will head and I have to be honest that my time availability to participate fully is limited. But I’m curious to hear how other women have dealt with similar issues.
Looking forward to hearing what others have to say!
July 16, 2007 at 2:32 am
[...] just posted a new topic over at the True Womanhood blog if you are interested: Have you made sacrifices and/or compromises related to your convictions regarding women? It’s kind of an open-ended entry and I have no idea where the discussion will [...]
July 16, 2007 at 3:42 am
Very interesting topic. Not just the women participating, but also the compromises that we end up making because what we would like is not there. My husband and I have been looking for a church. Some of the churches that we feel more aligned with theologically are not the ones that we enjoy some other things. So we go back and forth. We will probably end up at a church that is fine in worship and teaches through the Bible verse by verse, but does not believe the same way we do about spritual gifts and prophecy(a big thing for my husband). I have gone to some churches where it seemed as if almost everything was right, but even then there were some compromises on things that I believed strongly on. Some times it is hard to know what to do. I’d be interested in how others deal with this. Joy
July 16, 2007 at 5:27 am
This hasn’t really been an issue for me where I’m at right now, at least in the church area.
But recently, God seems to be showing me that He allows us (especially women) more freedom and liberties than we allow ourselves, and as this eventually will come out, I’m curious how family and friends will feel about it.
Sallie, I do empathize with you in wanting our daughters to be able to be who God created them to be, using their gifts to His glory without man-made and imposed regulations. Am I mistaken to feel like we are in more danger of erring on the side of hindering God’s servants than taking liberties that aren’t given us by Him?
July 16, 2007 at 1:42 pm
I think we all make compromises in some areas. I suppose it all comes down to which things are appropriate to compromise on.
July 16, 2007 at 1:59 pm
Alisa – I do think that many conservative churches err on the side of hindering women, primarily out of fear that if they give women an inch they will take a mile. I’ve had one seminary-trained elder at a former church tell me that he doesn’t get into the women’s issue because it is too divisive. So rather than helping me, he basically blew me off.
Libbie – In using the term compromise I’m not talking about making compromises that involved any essentials of the faith. There are entire denominations we would not consider because we believe that as a denomination they have compromised in key doctrinal beliefs. I’m talking about other issues that are more preferential in nature.
My husband and I have made the decision that agreement in theology and being in general agreement with the way the worship service is conducted trumps opportunities to use my gifts. I think it is profoundly sad that I have to make that choice, but that’s what we’ve been faced with to this point. I’ve chosen to look for other outlets for using my gifts outside of the local church. Blogging has been one of those venues. But the trade-off definitely creates a tension for me.
July 16, 2007 at 2:39 pm
No, I do understand. We had a whole lot of difficulty recently with having to find a church to attend nearer home because of my disability. We ended up having to compromise on the convictions we held to about a number of things because, as you say, we couldn’t compromise on essentials.
It was hard, but actually, I felt we learned a lot from it in terms of remembering what really and truly was essential.
And in personal terms, when it comes to giftings and callings, I REALLY understand that tension, and that’s one of the reasons I blog, too.
July 16, 2007 at 3:23 pm
Wow, that’s a difficult question! There isn’t a perfect church–they’re all blemished in this fallen world.
But it sounds like you’ve made the right choice. It seems best to be in a church where you agree with the theological and doctrinal issues, even if you have to make personal sacrifices.
I haven’t struggled as much (recently or explicitly) with the “what is my role as a woman in the church issue,” but maybe this is analagous.
I’m a musician and I love church music, choirs, etc. But before I moved, I was at a conservative church that didn’t believe in special music, choirs, etc. Just basic congregational hymns. And yeah, I missed singing in a choir or contributing more musically. But the theology of the church was really solid, and that was more important than “fully” using my gifts (in the big picture, it isn’t about me!). And there ended up being other ways to serve.
Perhaps the limitations that your church has imposed–even if you don’t agree with all of them–can help spur you (and your daughter as she grows) into finding creative ways to use your gifts?
July 16, 2007 at 4:15 pm
To my husband and myself, women being able to participate is important. As of this time, we would not be comfortable in a church unwilling to install women as missionaries and even church leadership. However, we are probably not as conservative in our worship practices as some, so we fit in very well in Four Square churches. It has not been a struggle for us at all.
July 16, 2007 at 6:10 pm
Sallie, I understand the worship preferences. I used to be very conservative in worship, probably mostly because I had been conditioned to distrust those who expressed “emotions” in worship. However, as I grew in Christ, I went from being very introverted/spective to a bit more expressive, really because my love for Him propelled me to it. I couldn’t NOT raise my hands to Him.
I do realize, however, that God made us all different in how we commune with Him, and just because someone else’s worship is no less real just because it looks different than what I’m used to.
Since worship is a matter of the heart, you are right in going to a church where you comfortable with the style and liturgy, and therefore free from whatever would distract your thoughts and attention from Him.
But I am curious… what are your current church’s practices when it comes to women in ministry? Having never been in church that didn’t at least allow women to minister to other women, I’m having a hard time picturing a church without at least some small outlet for a woman with your gifts.
July 16, 2007 at 7:46 pm
Alisa – For what it’s worth… I enjoy raising my hands, too, but I find worship that is busy, loud, physically expressive, etc. is very distracting for me. And so that kind of a service does not appeal to me. Not because I think it is biblically wrong necessarily but because it hinders me from focusing on God.
There are opportunities for women to minister to women at my church so it isn’t that there is nothing for me to do. And I purposely kept this post vague because I didn’t want the discussion to focus on whether or not women should do X. But there is definitely less freedom for me to use my gifts than at other churches I have attended. And since I’ve seen God use me in those other situations, it is hard for me to be in a church where I will never have those opportunities. I hope that makes sense.
July 16, 2007 at 10:11 pm
“And it is becoming harder because now I have a little girl who will need to understand at some point why we make the choices we do. And I’m not sure I can fully explain it to her when I can’t even say I’m completely comfortable with the choices we’ve made.”
You said it yourself – if you aren’t comfortable with the choices you’ve made, think about making some changes. You can’t lie to your daughter and she won’t “get” WHY you did things you weren’t happy with – kind of not a great example.(no insult meant):)
Honestly, I have been to MANY churches and there was always “something” that I didn’t agree with / or some form of worship that was different than what I desired. If I was happy with the basic premises and it did NOT compromise the beliefs that I will NEVER change, I just enjoyed the fellowship and lessons. We aren’t perfect, how can a church be?
But I do believe our personal “gifts” are a gift from God and meant to be used – not hidden! Change is tough, but if you cannot
be true to yourself and what you feel in your heart – how can you share that with your daughter?
I took my daughter to different Christian churches – all with the “unchangeable” truths, but varied in other ways. She actually, as an adult, found one she encouraged me to join!
It will all work out for you. Just keep the faith sweet lady, pray, pray, pray, and do what you know (in your heart), that you must. God will help you. My blessings and prayers to you!
July 17, 2007 at 12:20 pm
Sallie,
I have been thinking for a day and a night about this thread. Last night, over ice cream and a car ride that helped me escape from the very loud, though polite, conversation about the wives of the presidents that my son and my elderly mom with dementia were having (4th time I have heard it in 3 days) my husband and I chatted about your topic and how much my own experience and views are like yours.
I am an evangelical who believes in the doctrines of grace. We currently go to a Conservative Baptist church but have also been members of Presbyterian, Evangelical Free, and Baptist churches. Our spiritual journey as a couple has brought us to a place where we want a grace-filled message during worship. We want our children to hear the gospel of grace preached rather than the law. We want application of principles rather than manmade rules. We want to sing songs of joyous praise in worship that inspire our souls with awe and wonder and prepare us for the week ahead. Our pastor has to be prolife, as does our church. Beyond that, we are flexible.
But, in the back of my mind, I know I am compromising some things. I know that I am in the process of discovering what I actually believe about the roles of women in the body of Christ and that my research and my journey is taking me further away from some of those things that I had assumed were true during the 23 years I have been a member of the homeschooling community. I also know that if I were to attend a church where women were given the freedom I believe they ought to have in ministry, I could never stomach the pro-choice views. So what am I to do?
This is one reason that I blog as well. It does give me an opportunity to write about what I believe about homeschooling and relationships with children, but in the context of one another relationships rather than hierarchical, patriocentric ones.
Several years ago, I was with a group of men and women who were involved in a church plant. In discussing what denomination we ought to associate with, one of the men, who is now a church officer, made this statement, “We can’t go with that group. We would be known as the homosexual-women church.” That one statement was so offensive to me on a variety of levels but what it really did was to dismiss the value of godly women who love God and His Word and it closed the door for any real discussion at all. My very wise husband realized that we would both be highly frustrated in a group where there was no room for thoughtful and respectful discussion and where I would be dismissed because I am a woman and where he would be dismissed because he “couldn’t control his wife.”
Unfortunately, this view is taught by many pastors. One pastor I knew actually wrote his own “catechism for women” on his blog and he made the statement, in reference to Mary and Martha, that the “Marthas are the real Marys,” in other words, homemakers rather than Bible students are most pleasing to Christ, totally dismissing the true context of the passage. And this guy leads a congregation!
After that, my husband really challenged me to study and research and decide what I actually believe about women and their roles in the body of Christ. Some of the things that I discovered amazed me. O realized that, historically, there have been many women who were conservative, Bible-believing, pro-life, pro-family women who did not fit into the modern paradigm. In fact, even Dwight L. Moody, founder of Moody Bible Institute, encouraged women to preach! As I read through the Gospels and through historical works that explained the culture of the New Testament times, I began to realize how Jesus’ relationships with women were outrageous and culture transforming, and how life-giving they were to women and their part in the body of Christ. I also began to see how unbiblical so many of the views within the homeschooling community really are regarding women, and how dangerous they are as this movement grows.
Other compromises I feel I have made:
1.) Men who are in leadership who are more than willing to put their thumbs down on women but who are far less capable of reasoning or having an intelligent discussion about theology than those same women. (I am especially irritated by men who can only spew forth quotes or thoughts from their favorite gurus and have no original thoughts of their own. Why are so many of those men in leadership in the church?) How many times have I stifled, knowing full well that I knew more about the topic than that man did but that he would be greatly offended to “be taught by a woman.” To my husband’s credit, he loves to have those kinds of conversations with me, as I do with him, and he has shared my frustrations at me being relegated to talking about quilting and breastfeeding, both things I do well but am not interested in talking about all the time!
2.) Several times I have been asked, behind the scenes and secretly by a pastor, to give him my point of view on something and my suggestions for fixing some problem because “I really respect your opinion” but, of course, the men can’t know he asked me. I compromise and help any way I can, knowing that he will have full credit for the idea because it wouldn’t be accepted by a woman.
3.) I have had several times where I have been put in the awkward position of having to defend, by default, all the weird views on women that seem to come along with being a conservative, especially a homeschooling conservative. How do you explain to nonbelievers that you don’t share those views? I hate the guilt by association from both camps. To liberals, I am a weird stay-at-home mom. To conservatives, I am a “feminist,” the implication being that I am pro-choice etc.
4.) I really hate dealing with women who manipulate behind the scenes because they want to appear to be submissive but, in reality, run the show. I cannot stand that sort of dishonesty and, of course, I usually don’t call them on it. So I compromise and smile but know what is really happening. I have two stories that tell how this is. One involved a woman whom the pastor told me I had greatly offended at a meeting. Immediately I went to her to make things right and when I asked her what I had done to offend her, the response was that I had talked at a meeting and she wasn’t used to women expressing themselves. She said that she always tells her husband at home what should be done and they he goes back and does it at church, making it look like his plan. The second story was even better. I was at a women’s meeting where a potluck was being planned. There was much discussion about whether or not we ought to have a full potluck meal or sandwiches because there was a time constraint and it could cause problems with so little children to feed, etc. One of the women suggested sandwiches and chips, the women’t group, who had been given complete responsibility for this meal by the elders, voted in favor of the sandwiches and that was it. But at the next meeting, the pastor’s wife announced that the pastor wanted a full meal and she was able to persuade enough women to think that his preference some how equaled ecclestical authority in the matter so the meal was changed. In the process of her speech, she told us that she knew during the first meeting what her husband would want and that she also knew that if she went to him she could get us all to do things that way, citing “session approval.” Now, this sort of manipulation by women is shameful and, frankly, why, I think, women are dismissed so often. It has more to do with the perspecive men have on the manipulative character of women than on what the Scripture might actually teach.
July 18, 2007 at 1:15 am
Could someone please give some more specific church denominations that are not outlandishly liberal in doctrine, but still allow women’s talents and gifts to shine? Thank you ahead of time everyone.
July 18, 2007 at 1:30 am
I have had to play dumb so that I wouldn’t hurt anyone’s ego. I was taught that it makes men feel uncomfortable to be around smart women and they do not like it when women know more about something than they do. I was taught that a wife should not “run ahead of her husband” in the area of theology and/or bible doctrine. So, that means a good wife waits for her husband and does not study the Bible more than he does and she waits for him to study it for her so that he can teach her. I was taught that it intimidates men and that it will make them not want to study scripture or discuss it with their wife if they know that their wife knows more about doctrine than they do.
So, I have played dumb. I don’t speak and then I am subject to listening to people “wing it” when it comes to theology. They start speaking from whence they know not and we are all supposed to “ooh and ahhh” over their “wisdom” all the while pretending that what we are hearing is painfully hard to listen to.
I have watched while women who don’t know how to play the game speak up and soundly exposit scripture in a mixed, informal setting all the while getting throat clearing noses and furrowed eyebrows in response.
If they are men then they have a right and a privilege to teach, right? And, since we are women, we are subject to all men, especially to any man who is teaching about scripture.
I am also thankful, Karen, that my husband has no such sentiments about intelligent, competent and theologically minded women. He enjoys discussing theology with me and he is challenged by me as I am by him. This is the way I think it ought to be. Not one person doing all the listening and one person doing all the talking.
July 18, 2007 at 1:35 am
“They start speaking from whence they know not and we are all supposed to “ooh and ahhh” over their “wisdom” all the while pretending that what we are hearing is painfully hard to listen to.”
That should be “pretending that what we are hearing is NOT painfully hard to listen to”.
I think many of us have had to sacrifice/compromise our very beings and personalities and squelch our God-given gifts in order to play along with many manmade traditions that exist in the church.
July 18, 2007 at 4:05 am
“I think many of us have had to sacrifice/compromise our very beings and personalities and squelch our God-given gifts in order to play along with many manmade traditions that exist in the church.”
That’s true, and it’s too bad. “Playing dumb” or pretending to be someone one is not comes dangerously close to outright deception (unless it’s being done on a stage or as part of a recreational hobby of some sort); certainly such deception has no place in the Body of Christ.
If a woman sits in a room and hears a man teaching error or heresy, it is her duty to speak up, lest others be led into error as well.
Is that “non-normative”? Maybe, but remember, God has been known to use non-normative women in situations where the men have “dropped the ball”.
Just look at Deborah, and Jael, and even Balaam’s ass: a non-normative female isn’t necessarily sinful — but certain men may wish that she were, because when God uses her, her courage and virtue make their erring ways look worse than they already are.
July 18, 2007 at 6:11 am
Katy, my church is affiliated with Baptists, is very sound doctrinely (avoids extremes and our pastor dishes out real “meat”), has male pastors and elders and deacons, and while there is no “official” position for them, they publicly recognize and thank women who fulfill the responsibilities of “deaconess”, and call them such. I don’t think it was widely known, but there have been qualified women who have taught certain adult Sunday School classes (I assume women (and men) teaching the younger children’s classes is a given). In fact, the women are barred from nowhere (nor is their labor taken advantage of), save the elder board, which so long as there is no shortage of qualified men, is pretty Biblical. There are NUMEROUS (too many to list) options and opportunities for women to exercise their gifts, and men as well as women are encouraged to do so.
I do believe these churches are out there. Location and actually finding them just don’t make them easily accessible to us sometimes.
July 18, 2007 at 12:59 pm
The truth is that all women have to be willing to submit anyway. Did we not promise to in our wedding vows? Do we not hold to the bibical order of husband and wife- man leading but equality nonetheless? It is a burden for women to submit-to husbands or those in authority over them, especially as some are more intelligent and gifted than some of the men they are called to serve along side. RE comment 16- a woman should be able to question heresy but I do not know if it should be done publically….just as we should be careful not to put down or reprimand one another puplicly becuase of the embarassment it can cause.Of course, if you are not in a church that facilitates the option to do this then you have a dilemma. My church sounds quite similar to Alisa’s church- though we do not have deaconesses (sp?!)- but the deacon’s wives work hard and are always thanked for it.
Sallie- I have not had to compromise my personal beliefs on womanhood at church, but there are certain non-essential issues at my church which frustrate me and which I do not always agree with. I think however, that I have a duty not to be disloyal in front of my children about the place where the Lord has set me. I have learnt so much since leaving a large city church for a small, town town. There is good and not so good in each- strong points and weak points- and the Lord has shown me them, but I am really glad that I never heard my parents talkng about things that must have irked them. The same may be true with the ‘woman hood issue’ When Caroline is old enough to understand, you can explain, and with time she may come to form her own views- which may differ slightly from yours. I guess what I am saying is that conviction is from scripture between an individual and the Lord. Unless the issues are major (in which case you would probably think about moving)she does not need to know about them for many years to come- it is one of the challenges of parent hood- knowing how much to say and when to say it.
Hope that all came out sounding ok- was not meant to be critical.
July 18, 2007 at 4:21 pm
Hi Susanna,
I don’t think anyone is taking issue with submission but since women are not in submission to all men, just their husbands and ALL men and women are in submission to church elders, that means there is an equality between male and female members of the body of Christ. A man who cracks his bible open is not an authority. He is no different than a female who cracks her bible open in order to speak about something the Lord teaches.
I think we need to challenge heresy in a respectful manner in order to edify the hearers. Is it right for a man to challenge another man if he is speaking heresy in a public setting? I am not talking about a formal church service. I am speaking about informal settings where men and women are brothers and sisters in Christ and there is NO heirarchy. What if no man speaks up or no man is present or there is no man who even realizes that there is heresy being taught? Should a woman sit mute simply because she is a woman?
July 18, 2007 at 4:27 pm
“Katy Says:
Could someone please give some more specific church denominations that are not outlandishly liberal in doctrine, but still allow women’s talents and gifts to shine? Thank you ahead of time everyone.”
- Four Square is great.
July 18, 2007 at 10:07 pm
Thank you all for telling me about your churches…it seems I have some research to do!
July 19, 2007 at 12:09 am
Katy,
The “Evangelical Covenant” is awesome (it’s seminary is North Park, in Chicago—you can google it for more info). AWESOME diverse group, holding tight to the creedal doctrines of Christ, and very supportive of women in ministry.
July 19, 2007 at 8:56 am
What is ‘four square?’
Corriejo- What I was trying to say is that submission is a diffcult thing- but that we are to be in submission to our pastors/elders/deacons. I agree, men are to be as well- I would have issue with anyone doing something outside the ‘authority’ of the church leadership (as long as it is biblical). Obviously they are human and can be mistaken. Thank you for clarifying about the ‘correction’. Yes I agree in informal settings we can challenge one another and should not accept false teaching. I do think that where there is serious doctrinal disagreement the matter should be brought to the Pastor though.
We must not lose sight of the fact that sometimes the Lord calls us to use gifts in a way other than we might want- to teach us many things.Just because we feel we are gifted in an area does not mean that the Lord would have us do that thing- the same way that a man should not base his call to the ministry on his feelings alone- it should be backed up by others-an outward call.
November 29, 2008 at 11:35 pm
Stick with a church that holds the Bible as the highest authority. Now, they won’t always be right on everything, but they should at least desire to continually interpret scripture correctly. And therein lies your hope.
Scripture teaches that we should submit to our societal authorities in order to maintain our testimony to outsiders. During the early church, Roman law only allowed men to have authority in all political and social institutions, including marriage and slave ownership. In fact, it was often against the law for a woman to speak in public. Therefore, women were bound by that law within these new Greco-Roman societies and so were the women in the early church unfortunately.
My husband and I did a lot of research into ancient Roman politics and are quite confident in our research. And I believe it is now my task to gently bring the subject up in our male-dominated church, but I am confident that their desire to stay true to the Word will win out, though I know it will be an uphill, painful battle. Even if I lose, I would not leave this church for that reason. Hope that helps!
Jennifer
P.S. Teach your girls that they can do ALL things through Christ power.